Does one need to believe in Jesus for salvation.

@kingdavid403 said
Enjoy it while you're on your tangent.

Your post is no longer a "tangent" now that it has a thread of its own.

@philokalia said
The issue here actually has to do with the fact that not even Christians are necessarily capable of doing purely good works.

As St. Symeon Metaphrastis writes:

[quote]The devil tries to soil and defile every good thing a man would do by intermingling with it his own seeds in the form of self-esteem, presumption, complaint, and other things of this kind, so th ...[text shortened]... ings that we have are from God, including the good opportunities which have come to us incidentally.

Thats a pile of unadulterated unbiblical garbage.

@fmf said
You count "Reading Bible" as a "good work"?

Does "church" simply mean 'attending church services'?

That is what the church preaches. Nowhere in the teachings of Christ and the apostles would you find going to church and reading the bible being called good works.

@kingdavid403 said
After much study, I have to say, that I feel the opponents of my position on this thread are 96% correct; and, that I am around 4% correct.
I studied Romans chapter 9 and 10 last night (and others); and, it spiritually explains how some get salvation, and how some do not. It's really up to God; and, it says how He (God) does harden some people into disobedience, to bri ...[text shortened]... however, they do believe in Jesus. Just not in the same way a typical Christian does.
Thoughts?

Anyone have any other thoughts on my current position that I've posted here? I really am interested even if you do not agree. Please share?

@rajk999 said
That is what the church preaches. Nowhere in the teachings of Christ and the apostles would you find going to church and reading the bible being called good works.

"1Co 14:26 NKJV - How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification."
If people are edify others in the Lord, that is good works.
If one is reading and studying God's Holy Word, to be a good Christian and to be trained by God to edify others in the Lord, that is a good work. Simple really.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
We are all flawed human beings sir.

The way I see it (and perhaps one of the front runners for my atheism) Is that an all-powerful father has the ability to save all the humans he loves. And yet has a caveat of His own.

Think of a human father who has 3 sons and loves all of them equally, although one of those sons doesn't love him back, perhaps even refuses to ...[text shortened]... ther. Now say all 3 sons fall in a lake and are drowning. Doesn't the loving father save all 3 sons?

I must agree with you here Sir Duke.
This same thought has always shook my faith some.
In fact, if God is truly like this I, I can honestly say I would not want a God like just described here.
All I know, is that I do know of God's love, mercy, forgiveness, and righteousness. I'm putting all my faith in that through Jesus.

I do know that I have studied most religions and sects; and, most of them portray God's loving message to us as fire and brimstone.
"Follow us and our ways or else"; and, that's according to their interpretations of scriptures'"
I truly believe, and have faith in Jesus, that He is the perfect all-loving God that He has revealed to me; and, that He has revealed in His Holy Word to all.
And, I truly believe that many more are saved than what most typical Christians teach and preach.
I hope this helps some.

@kingdavid403 said
"1Co 14:26 NKJV - How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification."
If people are edify others in the Lord, that is good works.
If one is reading and studying God's Holy Word, to be a good Christian and to be trained by God to edify others in the Lord, that is a good work. Simple really.

Simple probably but not in the bible. Your reference fails to support the notion that going to church and reading the bible constitute good works. Jesus spoke at length about good works and nowhere in his teachings can you find support for your conclusion.

It is no wonder that church people fail at doing the good works described by Christ. They rather go to church and read the bible vainly deluding themselves that they are doing good works.

For an example of good works please read the story of the Good Samaritan. In that story you would find two people who failed to do good works but who instead went to church and read the bible. Have a read:

And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him, And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee. Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? (Luke 10:30-36 KJV)

@kingdavid403 said
Well said and thank you.
Side note: How was your trip to the lake? Good time?

Oh yeah, it was great. Went fishing and enjoyed lots of times with my family who I had not seen in forever.

Thanks for asking. ^^

@fmf said
How do you explain morally sound behaviour, moral compasses, good works, and philanthropy on the part of people who have no belief in God and who do not believe there is any such thing as "His goodness"?

Part of it is streaked through with self-aggrandizement and worship of the self, or of humanity, or of something other than God.

I think that much is pretty clear.

@fmf said
It is, at best, some kind of fervent hyperbole that does not withstand scrutiny and shows, perhaps, that you are not much of a student of the human condition ~ and therefore have only a sketchy grasp of what "belief" is in this context.

Personal attacks - lame!

Are you such a scholar of the human condition?

Show us.

@fmf said
The tangent is yours and it is this [which you offered INSTEAD of engaging what we were talking about, hence the word "tangent"]:

So you truly think that you, everyone you know, life around us and in us, the cosmos, etc. Are all just a fluke? Without God, everything would be just a fluke. What say you? I say everyone knows whether they admit Him or not.

I moved it to another thread, a new one, where it is NOT a tangent.

Nothing about what he is saying is a "tangent."

We're here to discuss meaningful topics related to spirituality, and King David is doing that very well.

This is a good thread -- good job, King!

@philokalia said
Oh yeah, it was great. Went fishing and enjoyed lots of times with my family who I had not seen in forever.

Thanks for asking. ^^

😉 I've always had an enjoyable time there. Good fishing also. I'm glad you had a great time, and that you got to see family! 😉 🙂

@philokalia said
Nothing about what he is saying is a "tangent."

I think the assertion "Everyone knows God whether they admit Him or not" is indeed a tangent. So I started a thread based on it. Here the assertion was abruptly sidestepping the thing that he and I were talking about. On its own thread, it can receive the attention it warrants.

@philokalia said
Part of it is streaked through with self-aggrandizement and worship of the self, or of humanity, or of something other than God.

It does not explain, though, how there is clearly morally sound behaviour and good works and philanthropy engaged in by people who have NO belief in God.

@fmf said
It does not explain, though, how there is clearly morally sound behaviour and good works and philanthropy engaged in by people who have NO belief in God.

So explain it in your view?
how is there morally sound behaviour and good works and philanthropy engaged in by people who have NO belief in God?
?