23 Dec 07
Originally posted by whodeyname me something good that has come out of anger?
You talk as though something is wrong with anger. Show me someone who does not bet angry in this world and I will show you someone without a pulse! I mean, you would have to be blind, deaf, and dumb or worse not to get angry about some of the goings on in this world. For me, a God that did not get angry would be a God who simply does not care.
23 Dec 07
2 edits
Originally posted by eatmybishopYour question reminds me of a Proverb
name me something good that has come out of anger?
Proverbs 16:32 "He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty, he that rules his spirit is better than he that takes a city."
There is also another proverb I can't seem to find right now that says something to the effect that retaliating in anger never works the righteousness of God.
Anger is a byproduct of the perception of being wronged or someone you care about being wronged. Can one then become angry and then have good from it? I think it is possible. In fact, I know it is possible because I have experienced it in my own life. There have been people who have angered me yet I kept my cool and did not retaliate. In fact, I did just the opposite and chose to do good to them despite their ill will towards me and you know what, they finally came around in the end and made peace with me.
Now am I suggesting that this approach of turning the other cheek is applicable in all circumstances? No. I am merely saying that it is possible to become angry and have something good from it. It takes a certain degree of wisdom in knowing how to handle those that wrong you. For example, Christ drove out the money changers in the temple with a whip. Did he turn the other cheek in this example? I think not.
This leads us to be able to discern when one should retaliate when angered and when not to in order for the greatest good to come of it. The Bible says that vengence is the Lords. God has the wisdom to know when to pull the triggor in terms of vengence. For example, I am fully confident that had God not destroyed the wicked people with a flood back in the days of Noah that mankind would have been lost altogether because of their wickedness. However, God chose to intervene and set a new coarse for humanity.
Really if you think about it, if God really is holy and is angered when people wrong those he cares about including his own Son then he too is long suffering. After all, mankind tortured and crucified his Son but we are still here. He must be long suffering to say the least.
23 Dec 07
3 edits
Originally posted by vistesd(1) Can you define for me what the word justice means to you?
[b]Is your idea of justice is someone demanding rights or getting what is
owed them? I’d say you and I have clear disagreements on what
justice is if it is limited to that. Love and living in it is the goal, as
Jesus pointed out the two greatest laws are love God and our
neighbors and by doing that we will fulfill all the other requirements.
Doing _______
I don’t pretend the world is a utopia. My marriage is pretty close, though. 🙂
On the one hand, you seem to think it would be unjust for such evil doers as you list to simply “get away with it.” On the other hand, your understanding of Jesus’ sacrifice seems to imply that the faithful will in fact “get away with” whatever sins they had heretofore committed; the unfaithful, however, will not. (By “faithful” I mean having whatever you define as a proper faith in Jesus as the Christ.)
[/b]
Justice, is the ‘should be’ in life as in the plum line on how things
should be with love as the foundation of all of creation. Justice is the
level playing field for all things; it is what calls for the righting of
wrongs, that blessing follow kindness and so on. I would say that your
house of love as an example was complete with it as well, it isn’t just
paying back punishment for evil, which is the part we seem a little
more accustomed to dealing with than we ever needed to be. Had it
not been for evil entering into the human experience our views about
justice wouldn’t normally call up thoughts of pain and suffering; it is
also relayed in scripture that anyone giving water in the name of a
righteous man would not loose that reward either.
You seem to just divide up the human race into saved and the
unsaved; suggesting that the forgiven are getting away with sins. I
don’t look at it that way, I look at it as the human race period where
we are all condemned with the wrath of God above us all, and God
reaching into the whole human race with the opportunity to save the
whole race by putting all the punishment upon Christ for us all. The
separation of those inside the kingdom and those out of it are
matters of choice by us, the shame of it will be that some may not
have heard that God has made a way and those who knew kept it to
themselves for whatever reason, or it was kept from them by those that
not only didn’t want into the Kingdom of God they also fought against
anyone else going in as well actively or passively.
Kelly
23 Dec 07
2 edits
Originally posted by vistesd(4) In your view (forgive me if I mis-represent it in any way) no one is deserving of eternal reward; but God nevertheless gives such reward to those who are faithful. Neither the faithful nor the faithless are deserving. How does this come under the heading of “justice”?
[b]Is your idea of justice is someone demanding rights or getting what is
owed them? I’d say you and I have clear disagreements on what
justice is if it is limited to that. Love and living in it is the goal, as
Jesus pointed out the two greatest laws are love God and our
neighbors and by doing that we will fulfill all the other requirements.
Doing _______
I don’t pretend the world is a utopia. My marriage is pretty close, though. 🙂
I see no justice at all in your schema. I see grace given to some based on them having the proper faith/belief in the proper person. They are the ones to whom God shows love in the end; the others receive God’s wrath. Ergo, this God can choose to be loving to some and not others, which means he can be loving, but is not essentially love. However, see below.)
[/b]
The wrath of God for all of our crimes was laid upon Jesus Christ; it
was done for all of mankind for all of our crimes/sins against God and
each other. The faithful sounds like a term that distinguishes one
group from the rest by their works or righteousness, but that isn’t the
case it is Jesus righteousness not ours that cleans us or washes our
sins away. We do not stand before God in anything we can brag about
the righteousness for all of mankind that was given by God for us all
is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Light no
one comes to God, but by Him and in that I cannot brag nor do
anything except throw all my righteousness all that I could brag
about, how good I am compared to whomever at Jesus feet, and asks
for His grace and mercy instead. I give Him my life as I take up my
cross and follow Him my life is no longer mine but my Lord’s. We are
all in the same boat with the same curse or wrath for the same things,
and we are all offered the same great salvation by the one we have
offended the most, it is fair and just in my opinion. God is long
suffering with us, but we are also told that too has an end, I guess
that is why scripture says now is the accepted time to get right,
because none of us is promised tomorrow.
I believe I have answered you other points above in my first post.
I believe I have given you my views on love too. If you do not mind
we could both share about it. Right now I have to do some other
things I'll come back to this when I have time.
Kelly
24 Dec 07
Originally posted by whodeyi appreciate the comments; i still find it difficult to accept this "this act will make god angry" belief....
Your question reminds me of a Proverb
Proverbs 16:32 "He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty, he that rules his spirit is better than he that takes a city."
There is also another proverb I can't seem to find right now that says something to the effect that retaliating in anger never works the righteousness of God.
Anger is a byproduct of ...[text shortened]... red and crucified his Son but we are still here. He must be long suffering to say the least.
when you think about it, if god truely is within us all, every act any human has carried out can be justified because god understands the state the mind was in and what led them to do it at the time the person did what they did...
with this in mind, how and why could we ever be judged?
24 Dec 07
Originally posted by eatmybishop1.) God is not within us all. We ARE all made in the image of God. So we could say that the image of God is within us all. But God Himself is not within us all.
i appreciate the comments; i still find it difficult to accept this "this act will make god angry" belief....
when you think about it, if god truely is within us all, every act any human has carried out can be justified because god understands the state the mind was in and what led them to do it at the time the person did what they did...
with this in mind, how and why could we ever be judged?
2.) Those who have allowed God to enter into them live according to that indwelling of God in different levels of maturity. Some with God within may never in this age really live according to that indwelling of God.
Others go on to grow spiritually and the indwelling God then is expressed in their living.
3.) Of course God has full understaonding of us and out actions. But He doesn't approve of all of our actions just because He understands them. And neither does our own created human conscience approve of all of our actions.
In the name of Jesus evey sin which a person commits may be forgiven.
And in the life of Jesus sins may be overcome. But this requires growth, maturity, and transformation of the soul through the Holy Spirit.
24 Dec 07
1 edit
Originally posted by eatmybishopTo give a quick answer, God is love. Therefore, anything that violates the law of love generates anger. As John once said, "For love is of God and every one that loves knows God but he that loves not knows not God."
i appreciate the comments; i still find it difficult to accept this "this act will make god angry" belief....
when you think about it, if god truely is within us all, every act any human has carried out can be justified because god understands the state the mind was in and what led them to do it at the time the person did what they did...
with this in mind, how and why could we ever be judged?
As for understading why we don't love I think this is why we are commanded to love our enemies and not judge others. God will do this. I think God will be a fair judge and, in fact, when Chrsit was being crucified he spoke to his heavenly Father and asked him for forgive them because he said that "They know not what they do".
25 Dec 07
Originally posted by eatmybishopI can understand stealing in some cases, but that does not make it
i appreciate the comments; i still find it difficult to accept this "this act will make god angry" belief....
when you think about it, if god truely is within us all, every act any human has carried out can be justified because god understands the state the mind was in and what led them to do it at the time the person did what they did...
with this in mind, how and why could we ever be judged?
just or right.
Kelly
26 Dec 07
Originally posted by KellyJaySupposedly your Super Duper God created EVERYTHING, so does that mean he cares as much about what an amoeba or rock does as he cares about what humans do? Did he send a "savior" amoeba to teach all the other amoebas how to get eternal life?
You would care if you created it.
Kelly
26 Dec 07
Originally posted by no1marauderI don't believe the amoeba or rocks for that matter rebelled as did
Supposedly your Super Duper God created EVERYTHING, so does that mean he cares as much about what an amoeba or rock does as he cares about what humans do? Did he send a "savior" amoeba to teach all the other amoebas how to get eternal life?
the demons and human race. I'm not to concern about the rest of
creation and its relationship with God, it seems it has a good one,
but the human race which as put in charge of this portion of God's
creation has an issue, but is being dealt with in short order.
Kelly