27 Dec 07
Originally posted by whodeyWe've all been through this ridiculous "if you don't believe in some kind of God there is no objective morality" nonsense. It seems to be the last resort of the Fundies on this Forum. The issue of whether moral facts exist is not dependent on whether a 3-O God exists. This has been pointed out to you and others innumerable times here.
Did I say the entire universe revolves around me? No, in fact, I did not. I am only communicating the importance of humanity in the eyes of the God of the Bible. If you do not agree then perhaps you do not see the harm in eating people. After all, why are you more important that a plant or an animal that you eat? In a way, you agree with this thinking, o ...[text shortened]... rom him. We are then cut off from the source of love and life. In that sense it is punishment.
To the dreamed up "God of the Bible" humanity is important though mostly to torture in ever more creative ways. I'm asking WHY humanity would be important to a deity further away for us in every capability than we are to bacteria.
27 Dec 07
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Originally posted by LemonJelloLike all things it depends on what and how much power you were
So you're saying that God placed us in charge of the other species, and we have failed to at least some extent in those duties. Okay, but what does that have to do with the ways in which God himself treats these other species, which was the focus of my previous post? Do you think it was right for God to drown out a whole bunch of innocent animals becaus ...[text shortened]... some of your duties, does that give me license to bring suffering and punishment on the child?
given or had. You run a country and take all of its wealth for your
own the country suffers, you attack or steal from another country
your country will suffer the results of that, you are a parent and you
take all of your wealth to support your drug habit your kids will suffer.
Kelly
27 Dec 07
Originally posted by no1marauderGod is said to be love, therefore, it is his desire to share his love. Now how does one go about sharing love? Is not free will needed? Hence humanity enters the pircture with the ability of free will which is necessary to share a mutually loving relationship.
To the dreamed up "God of the Bible" humanity is important though mostly to torture in ever more creative ways. I'm asking WHY humanity would be important to a deity further away for us in every capability than we are to bacteria.[/b]
27 Dec 07
Originally posted by whodeyExcept the punch line is he takes away that free will in Heaven; otherwise sin would continue. So according to your premises, a "mutually loving relationship" in Heaven is impossible. Therefore, the whole exercise is self-defeating (and being omniprescient, SuperDuper God knows this).
God is said to be love, therefore, it is his desire to share his love. Now how does one go about sharing love? Is not free will needed? Hence humanity enters the pircture with the ability of free will which is necessary to share a mutually loving relationship.
27 Dec 07
Originally posted by no1marauderYes, He knows if you have a choice to make you will make it.
Except the punch line is he takes away that free will in Heaven; otherwise sin would continue. So according to your premises, a "mutually loving relationship" in Heaven is impossible. Therefore, the whole exercise is self-defeating (and being omniprescient, SuperDuper God knows this).
Kelly
27 Dec 07
Originally posted by KellyJayHere's the quandry; according to whodey;
Yes, He knows if you have a choice to make you will make it.
Kelly
1) God wants (for some strange reason) humans to "love" him;
2) So God gives them "free will" without which love is supposedly impossible;
3) But by giving humans free will, it is inevitable that humans will sin (i.e. not do what God wants; which God can't tolerate);
4) God won't allow sin in Heaven, so he must take away free will after Judgment day BUT
Then according to 2, humans can't love God which according to 1 is what God wants.
So, God is screwed.
27 Dec 07
Originally posted by no1marauderIt is my interpretation that once we reach heaven we will have made our choice and our choice is our choice that can never be taken away. It is differnt than saying that we no longer have the choice once we reach heaven.
Except the punch line is he takes away that free will in Heaven; otherwise sin would continue. So according to your premises, a "mutually loving relationship" in Heaven is impossible. Therefore, the whole exercise is self-defeating (and being omniprescient, SuperDuper God knows this).
27 Dec 07
Originally posted by no1marauderI view this life as a weeding out process or seperating the wheat from the tares, so to speak. God is seperating those who desire to choose him and his ways apart from those who do not.
Here's the quandry; according to whodey;
1) God wants (for some strange reason) humans to "love" him;
2) So God gives them "free will" without which love is supposedly impossible;
3) But by giving humans free will, it is inevitable that humans will sin (i.e. not do what God wants; which God can't tolerate);
...[text shortened]... an't love God which according to 1 is what God wants.
So, God is screwed.
27 Dec 07
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Originally posted by whodeyYou're aware that makes no sense I trust. If our choice can "never be taken away" BY US that means we no longer have any choice. But if humans have a choice, it is inevitable that some will choose to sin. So the whole plan is a bust.
It is my interpretation that once we reach heaven we will have made our choice and our choice is our choice that can never be taken away. It is differnt than saying that we no longer have the choice once we reach heaven.
27 Dec 07
Originally posted by whodeyAnd why would he do that if the ultimate result is self-defeating i.e. the lucky eternal grovellers can't be in a "loving relationship" with SuperDuper God because they no longer have free will? As Telerion pointed out long ago. God could have obtained the same result with a lot less bother by simply not allowing Man to choose sin in the first place.
I view this life as a weeding out process or seperating the wheat from the tares, so to speak. God is seperating those who desire to choose him and his ways apart from those who do not.
27 Dec 07
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Originally posted by no1marauderNo. God knows if we will choose him or reject him in this present world even though it is our choice to make. He simply knows what the desires of our hearts are and knows where that will lead us.
You're aware that makes no sense I trust. If our choice can "never be taken away" BY US that means we no longer have any choice. But if humans have a choice, it is inevitable that some will choose to sin. So the whole plan is a bust.
In this regard I view this weeding out process to be much in the same. He knows what we will choose and will place us where we need to be accordingly once we pass from this life. Just because he knows what our free will will be in no way demands that he has power over that will.
27 Dec 07
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Originally posted by no1marauderGod wants and is getting an entire kingdom of beings who love not
Here's the quandry; according to whodey;
1) God wants (for some strange reason) humans to "love" him;
2) So God gives them "free will" without which love is supposedly impossible;
3) But by giving humans free will, it is inevitable that humans will sin (i.e. not do what God wants; which God can't tolerate);
an't love God which according to 1 is what God wants.
So, God is screwed.
only Him but each other. Those that want to belong to it can come
to him in spite of their sins, sin in the human race is only a bump
in the creation process not a show stopper. You don't want to belong
to that kingdom you will not belong to it.
Kelly
27 Dec 07
Originally posted by whodeyWhat a load. Either we have a choice or not. If we have a choice, it is inevitable that in all eternity some will choose to sin.
No. God knows if we will choose him or reject him in this present world even though it is our choice to make. He simply knows what the desires of our hearts are and knows where that will lead us.
In this regard I view this weeding out process to be much in the same. He knows what we will choose and will place us where we need to be accordingly once we ...[text shortened]... because he knows what our free will will be in no way demands that he has power over that will.
Your theology is an incoherent mess. "A weeding out process"???? Doesn't sound too "loving" to me.
27 Dec 07
Originally posted by KellyJayKj: Yes, He knows if you have a choice to make you will make it.
God wants and is getting an entire kingdom of beings who love not
only Him but each other. Those that want to belong to it can come
to him in spite of their sins, sin in the human race is only a bump
in the creation process not a show stopper. You don't want to belong
to that kingdom you will not belong to it.
Kelly
Kelly
If that is true, in Heaven some will choose to sin. Then what will SuperDuper God do?
27 Dec 07
Originally posted by no1marauderWhat is the loving thing to do? Is it to force us to love? God does not do this because it would not be love if he did. Therefore, we then have a choice.
What a load. Either we have a choice or not. If we have a choice, it is inevitable that in all eternity some will choose to sin.
Your theology is an incoherent mess. "A weeding out process"???? Doesn't sound too "loving" to me.
What about suffering? Is it a loving thing to do to allow suffering? Of coarse God does not want us to suffer yet we do because of sin that we have chosen. Having said that, it would then behoove God to remove all suffering from creation, no? Of coarse, he does this while at the same time preserving our free will, hence the weeding out process. Make no mistake about it God will end the suffering in his creation while at the same time preserving our free will. It may not make sense to you and it may not be logical to you but that does not preclude it from being a possibility now does it? Do you suppose that it all should be crystal clear to you as it is God?