Difficulty on Noah's Flood?

Originally posted by FMF
What utter nonsense. Do you seriously think that a person can [b]choose to believe something that they quite simply find unbelievable? You haven't thought this through.[/b]

What utter nonsense. Do you seriously think that a person can choose to believe something that they quite simply find unbelievable? You haven't thought this through.

I don't think what Fetch said is utter nonsense. But on the other hand what you like to argue - ie. "I Can't believe something that I Can't believe" is not completely without some merit also.

Neither propositions are "utter" nonsense.

Do you find it impossible in every and all instances to believe that you need forgiveness for some things you have done ? Is that simply an impossible concept for you to believe ?

Do you find it impossible to believe that there could be Someone to whom you could turn around at the end of 365 days and say "If you are THERE, Just in case, I want to say thankyou for the good things that went on with me in this last year."

Do you find it utterly impossible to believe that conceivably you could thank God for being able to rise up this morning with a sound mind and body ?

You just cannot conceive that there is ANYONE more than mere man that you could say " Just in case you exist - thanks " ?

Its a start.

Originally posted by sonship
I don't think what Fetch said is utter nonsense.

Give me some examples of things in your own life that you simply do not believe that you have chosen to believe regardless.

Originally posted by FMF
No one can [b]choose to believe ancient Hebrew mythology if they find it utterly unbelievable. It is preposterous to suggest that a revelation of God would be reliant on such a psychologically bogus notion as this.[/b]

Obviously not everyone finds it utterly unbelievable. But you can choose not to believe it.

Originally posted by sonship
Do you find it impossible to believe that there could be Someone to whom you could turn around at the end of 365 days and say "If you are THERE, Just in case, I want to say thankyou for the good things that went on with me in this last year."

I say that to my wife.

Meanwhile, I can't pretend to believe or somehow choose to believe the stuff you claim about there being a supernatural being there to hear you say it.

It is psychologically bogus to claim that I can choose to do so when I honestly and sincerely don't.

Originally posted by FMF
Give me some examples of things in your own life that you simply do not believe that you have chosen to believe regardless.

Either you choose to believe something or you choose not to believe something, or you decide to withhold judgment. It's all a conscious choice that you make with the information that you have.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
Obviously not everyone finds it utterly unbelievable.

Obviously not everyone finds it utterly unbelievable.

What is the point of you stating the obvious like this? What does this have to do with what we are discussing?

But you can choose not to believe it.

People cannot choose to 'not believe' something that they believe is true. More psychologically unsound nonsense.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
Either you choose to believe something or you choose not to believe something, or you decide to withhold judgment. It's all a conscious choice that you make.

You are dodging the question : Give me some examples of things in your own life that you simply do not believe that you have chosen to believe regardless.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
Either you choose to believe something or you choose not to believe something...

This is not so. Either something is believable to a person or it's not. The person cannot choose or decide to believe something that they do not think is true.

Originally posted by FMF

I say that to my wife.

That is good that you say that to your wife. Not all men would say that. It is very sad to know a couple in which no thanks seems to come from the one towards the other.

Perhaps it is not impossible for you to realize that your dear wife is not responsible though, for some things for which you derive immense good fortune.

There are millions of operations that occur in the cells of your body that have to work and work just right. A minor tweaking with some of these functions could render you very miserable, sick and even dead.

I wonder if you think it is conceivable that someone other than your wife could be thanked for the successful operation of these mechanisms in you for even the last ten seconds!

Do you find it just impossible that Someone bigger than you or your wife could be thanked for these millions of necessary functions in your cells working properly today?

IMPOSSIBLE! to believe? You just CAN'T that you CAN'T that you CAN'T believe Someone could be thanked ?

Meanwhile, I can't pretend to believe or somehow choose to believe the stuff you claim about there being a supernatural being there to hear you say it.

"The stuff" is vague and general.
Maybe some of this "stuff" are things you think I believe.

What about the question above? You find it impossible to believe that if you prayed 'just in case God is there, I want to say THANKYOU for the good operation of my being this last year. I realize that I could have had cancer, or alzheimer's disease, or killed crippled for life in an auto accident, or killed in a terrorist attack."

I wonder which you would like to do - possible say Thanks to God OR turn this around to be an excuse that because things like this DO happen to some people, therefore, you hate God.

You can twist things around in your mind. I am asking you if is impossible for you to believe you could be HEARD in saying "I just want to Thank You this time - to whom it may concern."

is it impossible to think that the Designer of the EAR cannot do something like HEAR Himself.

It is psychologically bogus to claim that I can choose to do so when I honestly and sincerely don't.

I already said that I think the thought has some merit.
No one asks you to pretend.
No one asks you to do a psychologically bogus thing.

Now think about it. When you made the momentous decision, I mean the REALLY important decision that this woman, you ASKED her to marry you, didn't that require something like faith ?

Didn't you have to kind of "step out" on a ledge or a limb and with something like trust or faith to take the gamble to ask her to spend her whole life with you ?

Something like "faith" you took I bet. And now look how happy you are. It worked out quite well to the point that you like to thank her for things.

That is something like trusting a trustworthy God to follow through with His own word.

Originally posted by FMF
This is not so. Either something is believable to a person or it's not. The person cannot choose or decide to believe something that they do not think is true.

Today you can find it unbelievable, tomorrow you can change your mind.

Originally posted by sonship
"The stuff" is vague and general.
Maybe some of this "stuff" are things you think I believe.

When I am addressing you, "The stuff" is not vague and general at all.

As you know, I find your claims about "perfect justice" and "ultimate morality" incoherent and therefore cannot take you seriously on any moral issue as long as it is underpinned by the notions you propagate.

That "stuff" is very specific, sonship, and not "vague and general" at all.

Then there are the claims you make about the relevance and significance of the superstitions of the ancient Hebrews and the claims you and other Christians make about the meaning and significance of the life of Christ and about his divinity, which you have never offered a convincing reason to believe.

This is all is very specific and not vague and general.

It's rather disingenuous of you to say so after all the conversations we've had.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
Today you can find it unbelievable, tomorrow you can change your mind.

Your trite truisms - several of them strewn across the last page or so - are dodging the fact that you've been called out trying to pass off something psychologically bogus as an 'argument' that supports the veracity of your personal beliefs.

Things like 'People can change their minds' and 'something can be true even if some people don't believe it' are just evasions in the context of what I have raised with you.

If you're sticking by what you said about people supposedly being able to choose to believe something they, in fact, just do not believe, then something psychologically bogus lies at the very heart of what you claim has been a divine revelation, supposedly to us all.

Originally posted by FMF
Your trite truisms - several of them strewn across the last page or so - are dodging the fact that you've been called out trying to pass off something psychologically bogus as an 'argument' that supports the veracity of your personal beliefs.

Things like 'People can change their minds' and 'something can be true even if some people don't believe it' are just ...[text shortened]... gus lies at the very heart of what you claim has been a divine revelation, supposedly to us all.

When exactly did I say people choose to believe something they don't believe in? I said belief is a choice. Do you dispute that? They obviously choose to believe in 'anything' that they find believable.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
When exactly did I say people choose to believe something they don't believe in? I said belief is a choice. Do you dispute that? They obviously choose to believe in 'anything' that they find believable.

So what is it you are trying to say? People believe things that they believe? Is that all you're trying to say?

Originally posted by sonship
No one asks you to do a psychologically bogus thing.

And this isn't what I am saying, as I think you know only too well. I am saying that your you-only-have-to-believe-and-you-won't-be-tortured theology is rooted in a psychologically bogus assertion that people can simply choose to believe something when they have no convincing reason to do so.

If your God figure were real and wanted everyone to believe Him and be "saved", then He would reveal Himself in a psychologically valid way (i.e. unequivocally and explicitly, and to everyone) and not rely on the prolific assertions of personal sincerity and certainty that your ministry is so reliant on.