02 Sep 17
Originally posted by @kellyjayHasn't your god been sharing himself with the Jews and Muslims for generations too? The Abrahamic god right?
Except the God who I'm talking about has been sharing Himself through generations,
making promises, and doing those things He said throughout generations. He was, He
is, and He is to come, so He is timeless and true and has disclosed Himself through our
time here. I'm not trying to figure that out, I'm accepting Him.
03 Sep 17
Originally posted by @fmfQuite so. Well, not entirely sure about any supposed revelation to the Muslims. Even the Muslims deny it.
Hasn't your god been sharing himself with the Jews and Muslims for generations too? The Abrahamic god right?
That the Muslims decide to sanctify the writings of a thief and criminal doesn't exactly change this.
03 Sep 17
Originally posted by @suzianneDeny what? The Muslims believe that the Abrahamic god revealed himself to them through Gabriel appearing to Muhammed, and before that revealing himself through all the prophets down through the ages including Jesus..
Quite so. Well, not entirely sure about any supposed revelation to the Muslims. Even the Muslims deny it.
03 Sep 17
Originally posted by @sonhouseQuite cowardly to ask for proof when even Christians will tell you that no objective proof is possible.
Ah so grasshopper, prove it🙂
I'm sorry, but if you want the subjective truth, you'll have to make the leap of faith to believe first, and then the proof will be made manifest to you, but not before.
We are justified by faith, not by proof.
"But recall those earlier days when, after you had been enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings, sometimes being publicly exposed to abuse and persecution, and sometimes being partners with those so treated. For you had compassion for those who were in prison, and you cheerfully accepted the plundering of your possessions, knowing that you yourselves possessed something better and more lasting. Do not, therefore, abandon that confidence of yours; it brings a great reward. For you need endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. For yet “in a very little while, the one who is coming will come and will not delay; but my righteous one will live by faith. My soul takes no pleasure in anyone who shrinks back.” But we are not among those who shrink back and so are lost, but among those who have faith and so are saved." -- Hebrew 10:32-39, NRSV
03 Sep 17
Originally posted by @fmfI have told you before. The Muslims believe that God has not revealed himself to ANYone. You keep refusing to believe this. After all, this is WHY I asked you once if you were Muslim.
Deny what? The Muslims believe that the Abrahamic god revealed himself to them through Gabriel appearing to Muhammed, and before that revealing himself through all the prophets down through the ages including Jesus..
03 Sep 17
Originally posted by @suzianneOf course Muslims believe god has revealed himself to them. They believe he revealed himself through the prophets and through the angel Gabriel, not to mention through creation, something that Christians cite in exactly the same way. To say that "Muslims believe that God has not revealed himself to anyone" is sheer nonsense.
I have told you before. The Muslims believe that God has not revealed himself to ANYone. You keep refusing to believe this. After all, this is WHY I asked you once if you were Muslim.
Originally posted by @suzianneYou seem to imagine that labelling Mohammed a thief and a criminal (the latter is dubious and anachronistic) will discredit him, despite relying on Islamic sources to make the "allegations." It's not like you are exposing a dark secret here.
Quite so. Well, not entirely sure about any supposed revelation to the Muslims. Even the Muslims deny it.
That the Muslims decide to sanctify the writings of a thief and criminal doesn't exactly change this.
Clearly this is not going to shake the faith of any Muslim anywhere. His ordinary humanity is rather celebrated. He is not set up as a model of innocence in the manner of a Christian saint, even though (despite that) he is indeed seen as a model to emulate in his faith and his commitment. I am not aware that attacking passing camel convoys is part of modern Islam, even though it was how Mohammed operated for a time.
By analogy, why do you not recall that in Roman times, the death of Jesus on a cross rendered him not only a criminal (one actually convicted as such, unlike Mohammed) but also to be despised for such a shameful death. {It is a distraction to shout back that Jesus was innocent - that is not really relevant to the point that he was all the same a convicted criminal shamefully punished.)
This is not hidden in Christian tradition - it is celebrated.
He was despised and rejected of men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with
grief. (Isaiah 53:3)
He gave his back to the smiters, and His cheeks to them that plucked off
the hair: He hid not His face from shame and spitting. (Isaiah 50:6)
Mohammed in any case is not God but a converted pagan and mortal sinner. Don't Christians have any converted sinners in the ranks?
So who is your little islamaphobic jibe appealing to? Is it not the cheapest bigotry? What a pity when in other threads you have such a positive aspect.
Originally posted by @fmfClearly, you know about as much about Islam as you do about Christianity, and that, apparently, is nothing.
Of course Muslims believe god has revealed himself to them. They believe he revealed himself through the prophets and through the angel Gabriel, not to mention through creation, something that Christians cite in exactly the same way. To say that "Muslims believe that God has not revealed himself to anyone" is sheer nonsense.
Originally posted by @finneganJibe? Bigotry? Look, do you think I have no idea why you are even here? Attacking Christians seems to be a cottage industry lately.
You seem to imagine that labelling Mohammed a thief and a criminal (the latter is dubious and anachronistic) will discredit him, despite relying on Islamic sources to make the "allegations." It's not like you are exposing a dark secret here.
Clearly this is not going to shake the faith of any Muslim anywhere. His ordinary humanity is rather celebrat ...[text shortened]... it not the cheapest bigotry? What a pity when in other threads you have such a positive aspect.
As you say, it's not like I am exposing a dark secret. Calling out Mohammed and the Qur'an for what they are is just truth.
And how dare you quote scripture to me? (And don't try to argue with me by telling me what points I cannot use to prove my case.)
And how dare you to portray the Son of God as a common criminal? Yes, what informs this entire discussion is that my Lord and Savior was reviled and put to death for being exactly who he was, the Redeemer of mankind. He then ascended from death, conquering it and providing we who believe with unmitigated proof of his mission and his purpose on Earth. And THAT is what we celebrate. This is FAR different from who Mohammed was.
I am most assuredly NOT an "Islamophobe". If you think so, then you haven't been paying attention. I find it somewhat remarkable that an avowed atheist would come in here with fighting words because of ONE comment I made off the cuff about Mohammed.
Muslims are among the nicer people I know, definitely more so than many so-called Christians. I've been to family celebrations with Muslims I know, eaten their food and have respected their customs. They are just like Americans, they just want to work hard, feed their family and worship their God.
But when I am told that Muslims believe that the story of Abraham and his son is about Ishmael, when it was Isaac, this makes a mockery out of my holy scripture, which IS the Word of God, not some writings of a mere criminal. Yes, it is my belief that the Qur'an is perhaps the best con-job ever perpetrated on a people. The fact that much of it is just a mockery of the Old Testament doesn't help me give it any more credence.
But do not make the common mistake many ill-informed Americans make, that since I believe the Qur'an is just the writings of one man, and a man of little education and worse morals at that, that I also disparage all Muslim people. Nothing is further from the truth, and I am not appreciating you, an atheist, coming in here just to attack a Christian's belief in her scripture over the scripture of another religion, calling such "bigotry". I've amassed a reputation in the Debates forum as a fighter against bigotry in all its forms. This is not bigotry. Bigotry is an insult to a people, not a book. No one cares if I think the book is fiction. After all, you think my Bible is fiction, but I still upvote most of your threads because you speak truth to those who would keep others down. That's NOT what I am doing here.