Christianity After the Rapture

@sonship said
@KellyJay

I cannot see Jesus leaving some of His own behind, while I can see many who claim
the name but have no relationship with God, not having His Spirit within being left behind.

I cannot see some left behind and NEVER TAKEN to Him. I can see SOME of thecrop being taken early and some of the crop being taken latter. This light has come to us in ...[text shortened]... ents of the great tribulation described in the intervening passages of verses 6 through 13.

We don’t agree

@ghost-of-a-duke said
I would accept that argument if the passage read, '“No one has ascended to heaven 'after coming down' from heaven, apart from Jesus.'

But it doesn't. It reads, '“No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven.' - In other words, 'only' Jesus has ascended to heaven. (Full stop).

You're misunderstanding the verse in John because you are extrapolating meaning and intent from one context onto, or into another.

Both Enoch and Elijah were taken.

Jesus came and went(returned) from heaven and back again of His own power.

I know you think you need to find inconsistencies in the text, and I understand why that's easy for you to do. If the text is inspired it follows that one must needs be open to understanding it.

You should read the entire context of John 3:5-13.

If you really don't believe there's a God or a heaven, then we may just as well be arguing about something we really do know doesn't exist. Like nothing, because we know that "nothing" doesn't exist.

@SecondSon

I've heard this assertion before. That Truth is being recovered. By the church. In historical stages so to speak.

It would not be wise to assume everyone speaking of lost and recovered truth is worth listening to.

Along with your caution remember that the need for recovery is stated BY the New Testament itself.

Latter I may get to share with you that the very mention of "the seven Spirits of God" in Revelation has strong implications for the recovery of God's building after damage.

Nothing in Revelation hardly is absolutely new. The things in it must be examined as to HOW they were used in previous portions of the Bible.

The whole mention of what no other part of the New Testament speaks - "the seven Spirits of God sent forth in to all the earth" relates to the rebuilding of the damaged Temple of God.

This is why the footnotes in the Recovery Version are so very helpful.

www.recoveryversion.org

I question the validity of that idea.

As well you might. I have no problem with a grain of salt recommended by you. I have no problem with "Wait, now, Not too fast here."

Our caution, though, should not be based on traditions but rather on what the Bible is saying. Our caution is not conservatism for conservatism's sake. It is "Let us go back and carefully examine what God SAID in His word."

Be cautious.
Be like the Bereans in Acts 17:11

Now these people were more noble than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scripture daily to see whether these things were son. (Acts 17:11)

Indeed, be like the cautious and noble Bereans.

I don't necessarily believe the truth was ever really lost or forgotten so that it then needs to be recovered or even rediscovered.

Justification by faith was there in the word of God. But it was neglected and departed from all during the millennia of the Dark Ages.

You heard of the Reformation. The protesting brothers did not ADD new passages to the New Testament. By God's mercy they paid attention to that which had been neglected and buried and for all intents and purposes been LOST by the Roman Catholic Church..

Do you think there could be no need AFTERWARD for something similar to occur to the Lord's believers ?

If you believe there could never again be such a need for the Holy Spirit to lead and even recover neglected truths, I think you are being too optimistic.

"But the Spirit says expressly that in later tomes some will depart from the faith ..." (1 Tim: 4:1a)

The Spirit expressly said. Right ?

Again, the need for recovery is indicated in the New Testament itself.


Second Timothy 4:3

For the time will come when they will not tolerate the healthy teaching but according their own lusts they will heap up to themselves teachers, having itching ears,

And they will TURN AWAY their ear from the truth and will be turned aside to myths."

So you see the NEED to turn our ears and hearts BACK to healthy teaching is something strongly implied in the New Testament itself.

I believe the truth has always been there and known by believers since the beginning, but Gutenberg's press revolutionized the proliferation of God's Word and the subsequent consequence of the idea that truth is being "recovered".

I am kind of waiting for you to realize the difference between saying -
"The truth was no longer in the Bible" and
"The truth in the Bible needs to be recovered because we have neglected it."

But what do I know?

I do not consider you as not knowing anything. For one we shall all know something of the anointing Holy Spirit teaching us to abide in Christ.

Actually, beneath the admitted complication of some of the details I share, what lies at the ROOT? It is the need to recover the moment by moment abiding in Christ.

If I fail to communicate that then you may blame me for my failure to be a good minister of the new covenant.

But taking away some of the difficult details of prophecy which sounds maybe mighty strange to your ears, what is really being said?

It is that we need to WATCH and VIGILANT walking in the Spirit of Christ. It us mythic that all Christians in whatsoever backslidden, worldly, fleshy, fleshly, divided state they are in will be raptured to heaven.

They don't really want to BE there. Sometimes you and I don't really WANT to be there. Admit it.

So beneath the details is an exhortation of great simplicity which no one who believes in Jesus should want to dispute. We need to live Christ. And we need to learn to live Christ day by day, hour by hour.

There will be consequences to this at the moment of the first rapture. That is the bottom line of what the OP means.

@KellyJay

We don’t agree.

Kelly, I think I understand you to mean that you don't agree that Christ would rapture some portion of the church on earth at one time and another portion at another time?

Is that what you don't agree with?
Or you don't agree in another way , and with whom exactly?

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Okay Ghost, back on this matter briefly.

“No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven” (John 3:13).

Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.' (2 Kings 2:11).

Contradiction anyone?

To me there are a few possibilities:

1.) For Elijah and chariot to whisked up to heaven meant the first skyward heaven rather than the third heaven. Possibly.

2.) For Jesus to ascend to heaven is a specialized ascending rather that what was described as happening to Elijah. Possibly.

3.) Either John or Samuel (author of the Elijah story) was wrong making the Scripture telling us an error. For there is an irreconcilable contradiction. Possibly.

Now of the three alternatives, the third I don't think I will adopt.

Why? Becanse it is probably the case that we need to understand a bit more. John also said that no one has seen God at any time and the Son has declared Him.

Well the Old Testament says Job, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Aaron, the elders of Israel with Moses, Ezekiel, and Isaiah saw God. It is unlikely that the Apostle John didn't realize that these people seeing God is recorded in the Hebrew Bible.

So it must be the case that for Jesus to declare God, to manifest His Father and to make God seen, superseeds the "seeings" of God in the Old Testament.

So probably there is no ERROR in the moving of each by God to heaven. There is probably something that we do not well understand enough.

You of course don't expect me to say that one of the books of the Bible is either telling us a lie or is just wrong. If I start down that road I might as well become an Atheist. And I don't and could not even muster up that notion because Christ in me is so real.

@sonship said
@SecondSon

I've heard this assertion before. That Truth is being recovered. By the church. In historical stages so to speak.

It would not be wise to assume everyone speaking of lost and recovered truth is worth listening to.

Along with your caution remember that the need for recovery is stated BY the New Testament itself.

Latter I may get to s ...[text shortened]... nsequences to this at the moment of the first rapture. That is the bottom line of what the OP means.

"It us mythic that all Christians in whatsoever backslidden, worldly, fleshy, fleshly, divided state they are in will be raptured to heaven."

Is it? That appears to be drifting close to legalism.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

To be "in Christ" means being "sealed" by the Holy Spirit "Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." Ephesians 1:14

Romans 8:22,23
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

In light of those verses I don't see how any born again believers are left behind.

@SecondSon

"It us mythic that all Christians in whatsoever backslidden, worldly, fleshy, fleshly, divided state they are in will be raptured to heaven."

Is it? That appears to be drifting close to legalism.

Jesus warns about watching. The watching is not concerning eternal salvation but RAPTURE. If this is "legal" what LAW is it "legal" by ?

Well we do have in Romans 8 - "the law of the Spirit of life" which we are told frees us from condemnation (self condemnation) and allows us to walk so as to fulfill the requirements of the law.

"There is now then no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death. (Rom. 8:1)

... That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the spirit. (v.4)

Here WALKING is taught. How must the believer walk? He must walk according to the law of the Spirit of divine life which is in his innermost being, his spirit. He must learn to let the spontaneous freeing of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus to operate in his cooperative WALKING. Am I right?

Are there consequences for neglecting this walking? He may be saved. He may not be ready to be raptured. For the watching and being ready MUST have to do with the walking with God, ie. walking in the realm of the Spirit of Christ.

To think God is not too smart and is LOCKED Into having to rapture you because you are justified by faith is not wise. Otherwise Christ would not have WARNED us.

And the mind set the regenerated spirit is []b]life and peace[/b] - the conscience is at rest that one is in God's pleasure in the daily sense.

Because the mind set on the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither can it be. And those who are in the flesh cannot please God. (v.8)

This section of Romans is speaking about sanctification.
Do you think we can neglect sanctification ?

Do you think it is legal to set the mind on the Spirit in the regenerated human spirit so that we might not be at enmity with God?

Do you think it is legal to live so as to allow the law of the Spirit of divine life to liberate us from sin, worldliness, self likeness, self centeredness, and the other expressions of the old man?

This is to pay heed to the process of sanctification in the way of life.
This is to pay heed to sanctification and transformation by WALKING in the sphere of the indwelling Christ.

This does no damage to Reformation realization of Justification by Faith for eternal redemption and eternal life.

The daily WALK counts.
And Rapture will indicate that God approves of THIS Christians' WALK and disapproves of THAT Christians' WALK. And the latter is given more time to learn what SHOULD have been learned apart from the dire circumstances of the great tribulation.

It is in fact His MERCY to them.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

To be "in Christ" means being "sealed" by the Holy Spirit "Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." Ephesians 1:14

Romans 8:22,23
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

In light of those verses I don't see how any born again believers are left behind.

Let me deal with these comments in another post.

@sonship said
@KellyJay

We don’t agree.

Kelly, I think I understand you to mean that you don't agree that Christ would rapture some portion of the church on earth at one time and another portion at another time?

Is that what you don't agree with?
Or you don't agree in another way , and with whom exactly?

Correct He would not split up the church like that, it would be all that are ready not some portion.

Is it? That appears to be drifting close to legalism.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

We must be very careful to examine exactly what the Spirit of God had Paul write. We must be very astute what it SAYS.

... Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up ..."

There is the possibility that some were alive and PREVIOUSLY WENT. Then Paul would be speaking accurately about those of us who are alive AND REMAIN.

This allows for the understanding of Firstfruits and [b/Manchild[/b] being raptured and those who are alive and REMAIN after these early raptures to be caught up at the end of the tribulation.

Again -

Then we which are alive and remain will be caught up ..."

This verse is still true if some who were alive and taken earlier so as not "remaining".

In Revelation 14 the alive and raptured first are the Firstfruits in verses 1 through 5. And latter in the same chapter after the events of the great tribulation those who will be alive and remaining will be caught up by the Son of Man reaping the Harvest.

If this is the way it happens, then First Thessalonians 4:16-18 is still true. Is it not?

Shall I use First Thessalonians 4:16-18 to deny and suppress what I am told about the Firstfruits and the Harvest?

I can believe both passages.

To be "in Christ" means being "sealed" by the Holy Spirit "Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." Ephesians 1:14

I agree. But the SEALING is for eternal life and eternal redemption.

Rapture is a reward for WALKING with God by learning to set the mind on the spirit where the Spirit of Jesus indwells us.

Please notice that John 3:16 is the giving of the gift of eternal life based upon one BELIEVING.

But then notice that Rapture was a reward based upon such things as keeping the word of the Lord's endurance.

"Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try then who dwell on the earth." (Revelation 3:10)

If receiving the gift of eternal life is conditioned upon believing in John 3:16 then being kept out of the hour of world-wide trial is conditioned upon keeping the word of the Lord's endurance.

Am I right?

Do all Christians always keep the word of the Lord's endurance?
Sometimes you and I do not keep the word of the Lord's endurance too well.

So we must not over extend the matter of the Lord telling us of conditions upon which we shall receive a certain blessing.

Because the LESSONS of Christ's endurance were learned by the overcomers in the church there there is no need for them to be learned in REMEDIAL style during the trial to TRY those dwelling on the earth. Right?

Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you ... OUT OF THE HOUR OF TRIAL, ... which is about to come on the whole inhabored earth, TO TRY THEM ... who dwell on the earth."

That means those of us who are alive AND left REMAINING have had to pass through the hour of trial. And that most likely to learn what SHOULD have been learned in daily living before the that time - to keep the word of Christ's endurance.

Those who took the initiative to learn to endure in Christ have no need for the trial and are rewarded by being kept out of its hour. - Raptured BEFORE the great tribulation.

Think on it a bit more.

Romans 8:22,23
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

In light of those verses I don't see how any born again believers are left behind.

Ah yes. But this says nothing about God's hands being tied so that He cannot reward some sons three and one half years before He rewards some other sons.

This does not mean there can be no rapture of a Manchild first and a rapture of the majority Woman on earth who brought him forth three and one half years latter.

@sonship said
Do you think it is legal to set the mind on the Spirit in the regenerated human spirit so that we might not be at enmity with God?

Do you think it is legal to live so as to allow the law of the Spirit of divine life to liberate us from sin, worldliness, self likeness, self centeredness, and the other expressions of the old man?

This is to pay heed to the process of [ ...[text shortened]... orn again believers are left behind.

[/quote]

Let me deal with these comments in another post.

I'm looking forward to that post.

In the meantime I have a question.

What of the dead in Christ that failed to walk that walk according to the law of the spirit? Do they miss the first rapture? If so, when do they experience resurrection?

It sounds to me as though some of the bride of Christ gets to get beat up in the tribulation according to your interpretation because they failed to measure up.

But I read what you said above and I get what you're saying, which is why I'm asking those questions.

@sonship said
[quote]
Romans 8:22,23
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

In light of those verses I don't see how any born again believers are lef ...[text shortened]... and a rapture of the majority Woman on earth who brought him forth three and one half years latter.

I need scriptural evidence to support those assertions.

For example: "majority woman"? Never heard of her.