- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
2. Majority of Christians? You make it sound as though there are classes of Christians.
There is a repeating principle in the Bible. Among all of God's people usually only a remnant are used by him in a certain spiritual victory.
We see this again and again in the Bible. For example, the story of Gideon's army of three-hundred in Judges 6:33 - 7:15.
Gideon massed thousands to fight. God told him to send home all those not prepared or half-hearted. The number was reduced. Then after special tests the number was further reduced until all he was left was with three hundred men.
God used the three hundred to secure a mighty victory on behalf of the whole nation. Their victory went to the benefit of the whole nation. But they were a remnant. They were numerically a minority.
Of the original multitude that left Egypt in the Exodus, an entire generation was disciplined to die in the wilderness. God only selected Joshua and Caleb from that original generation to enter into the promised land.
The children of the complaining doubters God brought in along with Joshua and Caleb. The originals mostly died off in the wilderness where their bones bleached. A remnant entered in to the promise.
In the return from captivity in Babylon not the majority of those taken away returned to the Good Land in the books of Nehemiah, Ezra, Haggai, and Zechariah. Only a remnant of the total number had their spirits stirred up to go BACK to the Land, the City, and the Temple.
In this matter of the first rapture BEFORE the Great Tribulation a remnant only will be found ready to be removed because of their daily walk and vigilance just like Gideon's small army.
The others, comprising the vaster majority, will pass through the Great Tribulation and will be taken at a rapture at its conclusion.
As a concise window into this is Revelation 14. For there you have God's crop on the earth of believers divided by -
Firstfruits - Revelation 14:1-5 AND
Harvest - Revelation 14:14-16.
The total crop of growing Christians are described as those who ripen EARLY - Firstfruits and those who ripen eventually - Harvest.
The [B]Firstfruits[/b] arrive on a heaven Mt. Zion FIRST. Then the major events of the Great Tribulation are described in verses 6 through 13. And then the description of the Harvest is described.
The former is BEFORE the beginning of the tribulalation.
They arrive at a maturity early, first as Firstfruits.
The latter are taken up by Christ at the END of the tribulation as a Harvest.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
This is one place where we see a REMNANT and a MAJORITY raptured, separated in time by the events of the great tribulation.
The same can be pointed out even more clearly in Revelation 12.
There are not. All born again spirit filled believers are members of the same body. The Church, The Body of Christ, are all one in Christ. When the trumpet blows we all go to meet the Lord at the same time. The dead in Christ first, and then we who are alive at that same moment.
All will be taken. Not all will be taken at the same time.
It should be that ALL be taken at the same time. But what OUGHT to be in the Bible and what TYPICALLY occurs is not always the same.
I have not seen in the scriptures anything about more than a single rapture. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I will explain to you why I so understand "selective" rapture. You are connected directly to Christ the Head and should take up in prayer and study to see if you eventually see that the traditional ONE RAPTURE scenario doesn't add up to what the Bible teaches.
Why do you think there is seen "Firstfruits" and "Harvest" in Revelation 14? If all the "crop" on earth is reaped at one grand time then why would FIrstfruits and Harvest indicate a difference in TIME of reaping ?
Think about it. And please read tonight with me Judges 6:33 - 7:15 about the little army of overcomers who brought glory to God yet benefitted the whole nation of His people.
03 Dec 18
@secondson saidIf not heaven, where?
That is correct.
Genesis 5:24
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Took Enoch where?
And let's not forget Elijah:
'And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.'
2 Kings 2:11 King James Version (KJV)
03 Dec 18
@sonship saidI cannot see Jesus leaving some of His own behind, while I can see many who claim
This thread is dedicated to the few thoughtful and respectful posters who can agree or disagree without being uncivil about discourse.
As you can plainly see I have presupposed a rapture which will involve a portion of the total number of Christians on the earth.
I predict that if we are living at the time of Jesus's secretive rapture, some of the Christians wil ...[text shortened]... rothers or sisters of anyone who doesn't agree with what I write here, I still love you in the Lord.
the name but have no relationship with God, not having His Spirit within being left
behind.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
03 Dec 18
1 edit
I cannot see Jesus leaving some of His own behind, while I can see many who claim
the name but have no relationship with God, not having His Spirit within being left behind.
I cannot see some left behind and NEVER TAKEN to Him. I can see SOME of thecrop being taken early and some of the crop being taken latter. This light has come to us in the latter days through the Spirit which leads the church into all of the truth.
Firstfruits are reaped. But the rest need help to ripen. The very heat of the Great Tribulation God will use in His sovereignty to RIPEN that majority portion of the crop that lingered in the degradation of Christianity. The very persecution and turmoil will HELP the majority crop to ripen. And then towards the end of the great tribulation THEY TOO THEN ... are raptured.
And I saw and behold there was a white cloud and on the cloud One like the Son of Man sitting, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand.
And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, Send forth Your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come because the HARVEST of the earth is ripe.
And HE who sat on the cloud thrust His sickle upon the earth, and the earth was reaped." (Revelation 14:14-16)
But BACK UP. Before this time FIRSTFRUITS were already seen arriving in heaven in verses 1 through 5. And between the two reapings there were the events of the great tribulation described in the intervening passages of verses 6 through 13.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
03 Dec 18
1 edit
Do I need to be a member of the Local Churches demomination in order to be eligible for rapture?
You have not been paying attention to what I wrote. I would like to think it is an honest and straightforward question. But you have not been paying attention how I dealt with this already.
Should I assume that maybe, just maybe, you don't WANT to understand me?
Maybe you don't WANT to understand me.
Go back to the beginning and read what I wrote about the exhortation and warning to the church in Sardis and the individual nature of the warnings in Matthew 24 and Luke 17.
Honestly and straightforwardly, your answer was already there.
The short answer is No. The slightly longer answer is No, the local churches are not a denominational division. They are a recovery of the principle of one church for one city.
03 Dec 18
@sonship saidJust answer yes or no!
@divegeester
Do I need to be a member of the Local Churches demomination in order to be eligible for rapture?
You have not been paying attention to what I wrote. I would like to think it is an honest and straightforward question. But you have not been paying attention how I dealt with this already.
Should I assume that maybe, just maybe, you don't W ...[text shortened]... a denominational division. They are a recovery of the principle of one church for one city.
It’s a very simple question sonship; why won’t you be unequivocal?
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
03 Dec 18
1 edit
I cannot see Jesus leaving some of His own behind, while I can see many who claim the name but have no relationship with God, not having His Spirit within being left behind.
The comment is good. So I may use it more than once.
Firstfruits and Harvest imply that ALL the crop is taken but not all at the same time. We may consider the Harvest to be left behind but not for more than about three and one half years.
The distance between the Rapture of the Manchild and the time of persecution of the Woman who brought the Manchild forth is three and one half years counting year in the Hebrew way.
"And she brought forth a son, a manchild who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod, and her child was caught up to God and to His throne." (Rev. 12:5)
That is rapture to heaven of overcomers who are to share kingship with Christ over the nations. Then the rest of the body of believers are persecuted on the earth for three and one half years. Look at the following verses.
"And the woman fled to the wilderness, where she has a place there prepared by God they they might nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days." (Rev. 12:4)
This majority body of the Christians OUT FROM WHOM the minority manchild was raptured is under nourished. God cares for her through the difficult times by providing those who can nourish her for that period of time.
The Manchild went to God and to His throne in heaven.
The universal bright woman flees to the wilderness for 1,260 days.
God cares for her there that she too may be taken at the END of the 1,260 days.
"And to the woman there were given the two wings of the great eagle
that she might fly into the wilderness into her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half atime from the face of the serpent." (v.14)
She is left but she is not forsaken. Praise the Lord.
The great eagle is God. And as in Exodus God furnishes the left Christians with His salvation through the time of great tribulation and persecution from the dragon and his antichrist.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
03 Dec 18
1 edit
The rapture of this portion is indicated as the rapture of the Harvest after the great tribulation yet just before the battle of Armageddon. See the verses immediately after the rapture of the Harvest in Revelation 14:17-20.
The majority number is nourished, furnished with God's escaping wings yet still in the wilderness. Caused to mature in the heat of the persecution and tribulation that she too may be ready for rapture. And then she is reaped as mature, as majority Harvest quite near to the time of the final battle of Armageddon (Rev. 14:17-20).
This Harvest rapture of the majority that passed through the great tribulation is therefore the rapture described also in First Thessalonians 4:15-18.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are living, who are left remaining unto the coming of the Lord, shall by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.
Because the Lord Himself, with the voice of the archangle and command, with the trumpet of God, will descend from heaven, and the dead in CHrist will rise first.
Then we who are living, who are left remaining, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and this we will be always with the Lord.
Therefore comfort one another with these words." (First Thess. 4:15-18)
See? She is not left forever. She is left to pass through the tribulation and taken at the last trumpet. That is the seventh trumpet towards the END of the great tribulation.
The Firstfruits - the Harvest , means the ones left are not neglected to be raptured.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
03 Dec 18
We must see that to be born of God is the beginning of a process of growth.
We do not arrive at God's goal simply by divine birth.
From the typical evangelical perspective to be born again is like to arrive at the goal of being forgiven. But BIRTH is the initiation of a process of maturity. Birth (as in born again, is not the culmination of that process.
The churches on earth should be as FARMS to plant the seed and/ or cultivate the seed for the GROWTH of the seed. And the culmination of growth gives rise to the reaping of the crop.
I planted, Apollos watered, but God caused the growth. So that neither is he who plants anything nor he who waters, but God who causes the GROWTH.
... For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's cultivated land [or farm] God's building. " (1 Cor. 3:6-7,9)
Understand what is being said here. The planting of Christ in people is for the GROWTH of Christ in people. Of course to have the seed of Christ planted in the "born again" experience is an assurance of eternal life. But there is the need for the growth and the building together.
The building of the house of God for eternity is the actual GROWTH of the divine life within the believers. So the planting is the beginning and not the culmination.
And the building of the church is through the growth of that implanted seed life of Jesus Christ.
You are God' cultivated land, God's building.
Stay with me and don't be a bit discouraged. We must all whoever we are receive Jesus as the divine SEED. And must look to God to give the growth.
The local church is, as in "the church in Corinth" should be a place giving utmost attention to this planting and growing for the building.
If we cannot meet with a local church we must lay hold that even two or three gathered into His name have His dear presence. Here to gathered in His name even in your own home, God I think, may cause growth and preparation for the reaping that is coming.
03 Dec 18
@sonship saidMy point is that all who are ready would not be left. Those who repent afterwards and seek the Lord will still find Him. When that is no longer true it is over for this universe.
@KellyJay
I cannot see Jesus leaving some of His own behind, while I can see many who claim
the name but have no relationship with God, not having His Spirit within being left behind.
I cannot see some left behind and NEVER TAKEN to Him. I can see SOME of thecrop being taken early and some of the crop being taken latter. This light has come to us in ...[text shortened]... ents of the great tribulation described in the intervening passages of verses 6 through 13.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
03 Dec 18
1 edit
Back to SecondSon's legitmate concern.
2. Majority of Christians? You make it sound as though there are classes of Christians.
There is only a difference in God manifesting the approved at the appropriate TIME and the approved at a latter time.
First Firstfruits are approved for rapture before the great tribulation.
Latter Harvest is approved for rapture towards the end of the great tribulation.
Yes, the crop is one.
And the Body of Christ is one.
The time of rapture as rewarding those who were watching and ready is not the time of rapture of those how must pass through a remedial period to help them.
Look at the seven letters to the churches in Revelation 2 and 3. Among the total constituents Christ calls for some to overcome (seven times). To those who overcome the surrounding degradation or obstacles to growth, He promises a reward of some type. That is a reward beside the gift of eternal life and eternal forgiveness in redemption.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
03 Dec 18
You make it sound as though there are classes of Christians.
When you read this statement of the Apostle Paul do you not see God manifesting a distinction among all those who are of the class of one salvation?
For first of all, when you come together in the church, I hear that divisions exist among you, and some part of it I believe,
For there must even be parties among you, that those who are approved may become manifest among you." (1 Cor. 11:18,19)
Paul is saying though the church in Corinth is one, some distinction is manifested in that God approves of the manner of living of some and disapproves of the manner of living of others.
Some seem defeated. Others seen to be victorious.
The nature of the life they both have is absolutely one. There there is no division. Yet because some rise to normality in the expression of Christ they stand out by God's grace.
For there must even be parties among you, that those who are approved may become manifest among you." (v.18,19)
Now this approval is not about eternal redemption. The immediate context was how the Corinthian Christians were behaving at the Lord's Table meeting. Paul deemed some were showing themselves disapproved by poor immature behabior. Others were showing approval in God's sight because of the grace which they were living.
Paul says that this will be unavoidable. All are saved. All are redeemed. All have received the gift of eternal life.
Yet there is seen some distinction because here are some defeated and here are some overcoming. His tone is that this is practically unavoidable.
So there is ONE BODY. But the time of rapture will manifest approval and the need for remedial education.
Firstfruits and harvest - Revelation chapter 14.
Manchild and universal bright woman - Revelation 12.
All are approved eventually for God is faithful.
All are not approved at the same time for cooperation is seen earlier in some and latter in others.
This is unavoidable.
03 Dec 18
@sonship saidThanks for clarifying. I understand now what you meant.You make it sound as though there are classes of Christians.
When you read this statement of the Apostle Paul do you not see God manifesting a distinction among all those who are of the class of one salvation?
[quote] For first of all, when you come together in the church, I hear that divisions exist among you, and some part of it I believe,
For ther ...[text shortened]... he same time for cooperation is seen earlier in some and latter in others.
This is unavoidable.
This is how I understand it - there is one general resurrection of believers, but in stages.
Then there is the resurrection of the dead who appear before the judgement throne.
Correct?