09 Mar 05
2 edits
Originally posted by DarfiusSo it is not beside the point, but it is beside the fact, eh?
Not beside the point. Beside the fact. And my empathy should be apparent in that I'm trying to keep you from hell.
You claim empathy for me. But it must be empathy of the shallowest sort.
If you were truly capable of empathy for me, or a hypothetical child who disagreed with you over your metaphysical beliefs, then you would find yourself disapproving of the theological system that damns both that me and such a child to hell for eternity.
But you don't disapprove of it. Rather, you endorse it wholeheardedly.
That makes you a frightening person, Darfius. A person who can't be trusted. A fanatic who thinks that people who disagree with him can be rightly consigned to an eternity of torment.
And someone who has the almighty gall to suggest that that is what those people truly want.
09 Mar 05
1 edit
Originally posted by DarfiusIf God can, by his nature, be BOTH compelled to love us perfectly, AND chose to do so, as you claim (assuming this isn't incoherent), then why can't he create creatures who are BOTH compelled to do so, in their own modest way, and who also CHOOSE to do so?
His nature is all loving. However, He freely chose to create us. So He is both forced and was a choice. Much like Christians will be when in Heaven. We've already made the choice here and when we get there, He will protect us (from sin) by making it forced, after being reassured it is our choice.
That way he could avoid spawning imperfection.
09 Mar 05
Originally posted by NemesioHow can you truly repent in the face of no other choice? Who in their right mind would choose to go to hell?
Hmm...Are you saying that if God, having revealed Himself in His
full Glory, spoke to Hitler at the day of his judgement, and said,
'You were a very sinful person, who did many evil things and caused
the greatest of evils in your lifetime. What do you have to say for
yourself?'
and Hitler responded, 'My dear Lord and God, I did not see clearly in ...[text shortened]... t Hitler was truly repentant in his heart, that God
ought not to forgive him?
Nemesio
09 Mar 05
1 edit
Originally posted by DarfiusI thought you were claiming a while ago that nonbelievers WANT to go to hell, Darfius.
How can you truly repent in the face of no other choice? Who in their right mind would choose to go to hell?
You told me that I know I am going to hell because you told me so, but that I still wanted to go.
09 Mar 05
Originally posted by DarfiusYou answered my question with a question.
How can you truly repent in the face of no other choice? Who in their right mind would choose to go to hell?
I am saying, for the sake of argument, assume that Hitler was truly
contrite and penitent and that God saw his heart and knew that Hitler
understood the magnitude of the pain he had caused.
Do you think that Hitler should be refused admission into heaven?
Nemesio
09 Mar 05
1 edit
Originally posted by PawnokeyholeWhoa, whoa, 'child'? I thought I told you that children who die as children go to Heaven automatically? Don't make me out to be a monster.
So it is not beside the point, but it is beside the fact, eh?
You claim empathy for me. But it must be empathy of the shallowest sort.
If you were truly capable of empathy for me, or a hypothetical child who disagreed with you ov ...[text shortened]... gall to suggest that that is what those people truly want.
I might appear like a monster to you, because you think my beliefs are not fact. Whereas I think the facts are fact. My empathy for you is the most sincere there is, in my world of facts.
And yes, I wholeheartedly support a justice system where Hitler goes to Hell and Martin Luther King goes to Heaven. If you think that makes me a 'frightening person', then so be it.
09 Mar 05
Originally posted by PawnokeyholeBy 'in their right mind' I meant in the face and full glory of God. You're choosing to deny God when the evidence overwhelmingly attests to His existence. You're not as crazy as someone who sees God and still denies Him would be, but you're still kind of nuts to me.
I thought you were claiming a while ago that nonbelievers WANT to go to hell, Darfius.
You told me that I know I am going to hell because you told me so, but that I still wanted to go.
09 Mar 05
Originally posted by NemesioYour premise is impossible. Hitler wouldn't be "truly" sorry. Why would he go from happy with himself at his death to ashamed of himself at his judgement? God. That would be coerced into shame, not choosing to be ashamed and repent.
You answered my question with a question.
I am saying, for the sake of argument, assume that Hitler was truly
contrite and penitent and that God saw his heart and knew that Hitler
understood the magnitude of the pain he had caused.
Do you think that Hitler should be refused admission into heaven?
Nemesio
09 Mar 05
Originally posted by Darfius
Whoa, whoa, 'child'? I thought I told you that children who die as children go to Heaven automatically? Don't make me out to be a monster.
Does this include Midianite children? What about children of pagan
parents (who worship the sun, say)? And, at what age is the cutoff
point? Does 'Baptism' enter into your decision making process?
Nemesio
09 Mar 05
Originally posted by Darfius
Your premise is impossible.
The thief on the cross came to Jesus in his last hours after what
was no doubt a life of dissipation. I don't think of the premise
as utterly impossible.
What about Rwingett, our resident atheist? After a life of literal
disdain for religious-types, do you think that he could come to
God post-mortem?
Are you saying that no one can be forgiven after their death?
Nemesio
09 Mar 05
Originally posted by NemesioYes, I am saying purgatory doesn't exist and that forgiveness after God's appointed time for forgiveness does not exist.
Originally posted by Darfius
[b]Your premise is impossible.
The thief on the cross came to Jesus in his last hours after what
was no doubt a life of dissipation. I don't think of the premise
as utterly impossible.
What about Rwingett, our resident atheist? After a life of literal
disdain for religious-types, do you think that he could ...[text shortened]... to
God post-mortem?
Are you saying that no one can be forgiven after their death?
Nemesio[/b]
09 Mar 05
Originally posted by NemesioALL children. And by children, I mean unable to truly know right from wrong or sin from non-sin to be more precise.
Originally posted by Darfius
[b]Whoa, whoa, 'child'? I thought I told you that children who die as children go to Heaven automatically? Don't make me out to be a monster.
Does this include Midianite children? What about children of pagan
parents (who worship the sun, say)? And, at what age is the cutoff
point? Does 'Baptism' enter into your decision making process?
Nemesio[/b]
09 Mar 05
Originally posted by DarfiusCouldn't Adam and Eve be argued to have been moral "children", unable to have a concept of sin, since it didn't even exist before the eating of the apple?
ALL children. And by children, I mean unable to truly know right from wrong or sin from non-sin to be more precise.
09 Mar 05
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesSin did exist. Lucifer sinned before Adam and Eve did. And they chose to disobey God, you can't define sin any better than that.
Couldn't Adam and Eve be argued to have been moral "children", unable to have a concept of sin, since it didn't even exist before the eating of the apple?
