09 Mar 05
1 edit
To not want to be with God is to want eternal torment. They're synonymous.
Darfius,
Are you seriously stating that everybody who doesn't wish to share your view of God (the correct one, of course) WISHES to go to hell, a place of eternal torment, because that IS THE SAME THING AS not wishing to share your view of God?
Are you seriously stating that my dread of going to hell there is an illusion, and I am truly WISHING for it, WANTING it, and WELCOMING the idea of it?
🙂
09 Mar 05
Originally posted by DarfiusThat is biblically incorrect Darfius. Adam and Eve wanted to eat a forbidden fruit, not to live in an imperfect world.
On the contrary, His infinite love shows in His constant need to give us a choice. They chose to have an imperfect world. He granted their choice.
Cite a passage from the bible where it shows that Adam an Eve wanted to live outside paradise. Bet you can't.
You can't because God never told them that an imperfect world would be the result of their disobedience. Given that he didn't inform them, how could they have wished for it?
Here is your general error, stated formally. Someone wishes for X. However, X leads to Y. Therefore, they wanted Y, because X and Y are the same thing.
As I stated earlier, if X leads to Y, it can't be the same as Y, because the statement X causes X, or Y causes Y, is nonsensical.
09 Mar 05
Originally posted by PawnokeyholeIf it were only my view, it would be illogical.
[b]
To not want to be with God is to want eternal torment. They're synonymous.
Darfius,
Are you seriously stating that everybody who doesn't wish to share your view of God (the correct one, of course) WISHES to go to hell, a place of eternal torment, because that IS THE SAME AS not wishing to share your view of God?
Are you seriously ...[text shortened]... e is an illusion, and I am truly WISHING for it, WANTING it, and WELCOMING the idea of it?
🙂[/b]
However, if my view is correct (have you exhaustively studied it and come to a different conclusion? Have you asked God to come into your life to test the claim that He will?) then yes, I am saying you are welcoming hell, since you know it is the only other option to accept Christ.
09 Mar 05
Originally posted by PawnokeyholeYou're right, He said they would die. Are you suggested death is perfect?
That is biblically incorrect Darfius. Adam and Eve wanted to eat a forbidden fruit, not to live in an imperfect world.
Cite a passage from the bible where it shows that Adam an Eve wanted to live outside paradise. Bet you can't.
You can't because God never told them that an imperfect world would be the result of their disobedience. Given that h ...[text shortened]... Y, it can't be the same as Y, because the statement X causes X, or Y causes Y, is nonsensical.
09 Mar 05
Originally posted by DarfiusWell, actually, I don't know that the only option to going to hell is to accept Christ.
If it were only my view, it would be illogical.
However, if my view is correct (have you exhaustively studied it and come to a different conclusion? Have you asked God to come into your life to test the claim that He will?) then yes, I am saying you are welcoming hell, since you know it is the only other option to accept Christ.
Not only do I not know it, I don't believe it.
But that's beside the point really. You are still falling victim to the logical fallacy I have outlined.
I mean logical in the strict sense of "deductively unsound", not in the loose sense of "rationally, empirically, or pragmatically unjustified" that you use in your last post.
09 Mar 05
1 edit
Originally posted by DarfiusWell, I guess death does imply an imperfect world.
You're right, He said they would die. Are you suggested death is perfect?
That still wouldn't mean that they wished to die, or live in an imperfect world, which is my main point. The serpent led them to suspect that they would not die.
09 Mar 05
1 edit
Originally posted by PawnokeyholeWould you have believed the serpent or God?
Well, I guess death does imply an imperfect world.
That still wouldn't mean that they wished to die, or live in an imperfect world, which is my main point. The serpent led them to suspect that they would not die.
09 Mar 05
Originally posted by PawnokeyholeYes, you know that's the only other option because I just told you, and because it says so in the Bible.
Well, actually, I don't know that the only option to going to hell is to accept Christ.
Not only do I not know it, I don't believe it.
But that's beside the point really. You are still falling victim to the logical fallacy I have outlined.
I mean logical in the strict sense of "deductively unsound", not in the loose sense of "rationally, empirically, or pragmatically unjustified" that you use in your last post.
In other words, not believing and not knowing are two different things.
Will you be completely surprised if you wake up in hell after you die? Or will a small piece of you be prepared?
09 Mar 05
1 edit
Originally posted by DarfiusNo Darfius,
Yes, you know that's the only other option because I just told you, and because it says so in the Bible.
In other words, not believing and not knowing are two different things.
Will you be completely surprised if you wake up in hell after you die? Or will a small piece of you be prepared?
I don't think that because you told me, or because the bible says so, that I know.
Nor, indeed, do you know. I know you think you know, but I think you don't know (though you probably know I think your don't know). We endorse diverging epistemological criteria.
But the only fact that is relevant here to our previous discussion is the fact that I think I don't know.
More specifically, given that I don't think I am going to hell, there is no way on that you can plausibly argue, without falling into the incoherence I spelled out multiple times, that I want to go to hell, even if I really do go to hell as a result.
09 Mar 05
Originally posted by PawnokeyholeI don't think you understand the concept of hell. Hell is just the name for a place away from God completely.
No Darfius,
I don't think that because you told me, or because the bible says so, that I know.
Nor, indeed, do you know. I know you think you know, but I think you don't know (though you probably know I think your don't know). We endorse diverging epistemological criteria.
But the only fact that is relevant here to our previous discussion is ...[text shortened]... elled out multiple times, that I want to go to hell, even if I really do go to hell as a result.
Do you or do you not reject God?
09 Mar 05
Actually, I want to ask you a question I once asked Muslim fundamentlist, who thought I was going to hell as a result of too much freethinking.
(Note that he thinks you are going to hell and you think he is going to hell, and either one or both of you is going to be wrong.)
How do you feel personally about my going to hell? Do you think it is a good thing that God sends me there?
If you had a child, who later in life decided knowingly not to believe what you do about God, would it be a good thing that God sends him or her to hell?
09 Mar 05
Originally posted by DarfiusSo, let me get this straight. Billions of OTHER people, including innocents, have had since to put up with an imperfect world filled with suffering because of God decided that if Adam and Eve freely chose eat some fruit of a tree he would make the world imperfect thereafter, even though He has, at any moment, the power to make the world perfect again?
Precisely. They weren't coerced. They chose to do it. Eve for power. Adam for love of Eve.
09 Mar 05
Originally posted by DarfiusIs hell, however you define it, the same thing as not accepting God, as you understand it, in the here and now?
I don't think you understand the concept of hell. Hell is just the name for a place away from God completely.
Do you or do you not reject God?
This is what you said above, I believe.