@secondson saidUse the numbers I provided. Which of the 14 elements of the ideology is sonship [and like-minded Christians] wrong to believe?
Ok. Let's try to look at this coherently.
Revelation 20:11-15
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged ...[text shortened]... scripture for the sake of an extremely narrow perspective. You can't see the forest from the trees.
@fmf saidThe very first premise is the most problematic:
Here they are again, numbered this time. There are 14 elements. Which ones do you not believe? Which ones do you believe with modifications? Mention the numbers; save you some typing.
This is what sonship has told me over and over again over the years... This is the torturer god ideology.
1: Non-believers are supposedly thrown into a Lake of Fire.
2: Here, ...[text shortened]... , even if they do not believe in the torturer god and do not subscribe to the torturer god ideology.
"1: Non-believers are supposedly thrown into a Lake of Fire. "
Christianity is full of complicated concepts concerning what constitutes culpability in terms of heaven/hell, and there are entire concepts like purgatory & limbo which have been developed by Church figures.
Your concept of this is very broad.
(3) The punishment is not revenge.
(5) It is debatable about what, exactly, constitutes sins that send one to hell no matter what.
(6) There are even non-annihilationist sects that believe there is a destruction to hell at some point.
(10) Lack of Christian belief is not something that aligns someone with Satan.
(13, 14) LOL, no...
... It became very plain early on that this wasn't some real list that actually attempted to describe or account for the doctrine of hell. It was incredibly repetitive and doesn't accurately describe the doctrine.
You don't really even know what you are attacking and you don't even bother to try to make a good list describing what the doctrine is. And that is even disregarding the loaded language you shoehorned in at every opportunity.
Very sloppy post, FMF, and definitely a bit scary that an adult who dedicates this much time to "Spirituality" forums apparently has zero appreciation for what the doctrine of Hell actually is.
@philokalia saidTake it up with sonship. Those 14 elements of the torturer god ideology are his beliefs, not mine.
Very sloppy post, FMF, and definitely a bit scary that an adult who dedicates this much time to "Spirituality" forums apparently has zero appreciation for what the doctrine of Hell actually is.
@philokalia saidYes. If you don't agree with some of them, good for you. They constitute sonship's eternal torture beliefs.
... Do you really think you definitively described the doctrine here, and did so accurately?
@philokalia saidI think it's dead on target and laid out pretty neutrally.
You don't really even know what you are attacking and you don't even bother to try to make a good list describing what the doctrine is. And that is even disregarding the loaded language you shoehorned in at every opportunity.
14: But, because of 'free will', those billions of people who do go to Hell, they send themselves there knowingly and wilfully, even if they do not believe in the torturer god and do not subscribe to the torturer god ideology.
You say "LOL, no..."
Here's you a short while ago on the other thread:
@divegeester said
To "torment" is to "torture"; the words are synonymous. To torment someone is to torture them. Your distinction between the words within the context of subjecting someone to eternal suffering, is meaningless and frankly dishonest.
"But who is responsible for them going to hell? They have free will."
@Philokalia
It became very plain early on that this wasn't some real list that actually attempted to describe or account for the doctrine of hell. It was incredibly repetitive and doesn't accurately describe the doctrine.
You don't really even know what you are attacking and you don't even bother to try to make a good list describing what the doctrine is. And that is even disregarding the loaded language you shoehorned in at every opportunity.
Very sloppy post, FMF, and definitely a bit scary that an adult who dedicates this much time to "Spirituality" forums apparently has zero appreciation for what the doctrine of Hell actually is.
This is just deflection.
@philokalia saidIf you disagree, take it up with the likes of Eladar, Sonship, RJHinds, KellyJay, pudgenik, RBHILL, josephw and many more.
(3) The punishment is not revenge.
(10) Lack of Christian belief is not something that aligns someone with Satan.
@fmf saidNo. I will not use the "numbers" you provided.
Use the numbers I provided. Which of the 14 elements of the ideology is sonship [and like-minded Christians] wrong to believe?
I provided a simple passage which refutes your assertion about a "torturer god ideology". All your numbers and phraseology notwithstanding, how do you get from that passage that the God of the Bible is a torturer god?
You can't, because that's not at all what the passage is about. The verses quoted are about "the dead" being "judged" according to their "works" and their subsequent consignment to the lake of fire.
Nothing about "torture", but everything about man being called to account for his deeds in this life.
Let's move on. Let's examine what the Bible says about this topic. Not what some posters may or may not be saying.
If you think you can handle it.
@secondson saidDo you agree or disagree with each one?
No. I will not use the "numbers" you provided.
@secondson saidTake it up with people who believe all or most of the 14 things I listed. Don't try to use me as a proxy.
I provided a simple passage which refutes your assertion about a "torturer god ideology". All your numbers and phraseology notwithstanding, how do you get from that passage that the God of the Bible is a torturer god?
@secondson saidDiscuss it with proponents of the ideology I have described. I am not one of its proponents.
Let's examine what the Bible says about this topic. Not what some posters may or may not be saying.