Be Like Christ v Talk Like Paul

@pb1022 said
A preacher of the Gospel *is.* a doer of the Gospel.

Saving souls is arguably much more important than brushing snow off your neighbor’s car five years ago and patting yourself on the back for doing that ever since.

I’d go with this. Christians are obliged to share the hopes of the bible and continue the work that Jesus and the apostles started Matt 28:19-20

Again “faith without works is dead” James 2:26

@medullah said
I’d go with this. Christians are obliged to share the hopes of the bible and continue the work that Jesus and the apostles started Matt 28:19-20

Again “faith without works is dead” James 2:26

But "works" can't save.

Romans 4:5,6
¶ But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Are the scriptures contradicting themselves?

@josephw said
Matthew 23:1-3
¶ Then spake Jesus.., Saying,
The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

James 1:22
But be ye doers of the ...[text shortened]... s Lord, then repents, then is born again by the Spirit of God and strives to live a sanctified life.

Of course it is possible to be a hearer, a believer, a preacher and born again Christian, with the Holy Spirit and yet completely ignore the fact that a righteous life must be lived. there were many examples of that in the time of Paul.

Did you answer the question of what is more virtuous, since they are separate and distinct, doing v hearing, or living righteously v preaching about righteousness. There are many ways it can be phrased but it expresses the same idea, one hears / believes and another does / puts it into practice.

@josephw said
But "works" can't save.

Romans 4:5,6
¶ But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Are the scriptures contradicting themselves?

Did someone say works can save. Why does this line keep coming back ?

Jesus saves.
God sent Jesus to save people from their sins.

@medullah said
I’d go with this. Christians are obliged to share the hopes of the bible and continue the work that Jesus and the apostles started Matt 28:19-20

Again “faith without works is dead” James 2:26

Yes but a believer or follower can share the Gospel but still continue to live the most horrendous sinful lifestyle. What is more virtuous a man who believers and preaches or a man who lives righteously.

@rajk999 said
Of course it is possible to be a hearer, a believer, a preacher and born again Christian, with the Holy Spirit and yet completely ignore the fact that a righteous life must be lived. there were many examples of that in the time of Paul.

I believe a born again Christian can be carnal, and suffer the consequences, but not lose his salvation.

1 Corinthians 3:13-15
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

@rajk999 said
Did you answer the question of what is more virtuous, since they are separate and distinct, doing v hearing, or living righteously v preaching about righteousness. There are many ways it can be phrased but it expresses the same idea, one hears / believes and another does / puts it into practice.

After thinking about it I'd have to say it is more virtuous to be a "doer", because then what one "says" carries more weight.

I believe the scriptures support that idea.

@rajk999 said
Did someone say works can save. Why does this line keep coming back ?

Because some think "works" save.

Let's just be sure we're in agreement on that point.

@josephw said
I believe a born again Christian can be carnal, and suffer the consequences, but not lose his salvation.

1 Corinthians 3:13-15
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a rew ...[text shortened]... man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

In verses 16 and 17 Paul added another Christian who is destroyed because he defiled the temple of God / himself. Did you omit that verse willfully ?

@josephw said
Because some think "works" save.

Let's just be sure we're in agreement on that point.

I have never seen anyone say 'works saves', not even me.
I have repeatedly said, Jesus saves, Jesus died so that mankind can be saved.

Also true is that faith does not save either.
Nobody is saved by faith.
James cleared that up.
Paul too, said it.

People are saved from their sins by the death and resurrection of Christ.

Lets get back to the main topic.

@rajk999 said
I have never seen anyone say 'works saves', not even me.
I have repeatedly said, Jesus saves, Jesus died so that mankind can be saved.

Also true is that faith does not save either.
Nobody is saved by faith.
James cleared that up.
Paul too, said it.

People are saved from their sins by the death and resurrection of Christ.

Lets get back to the main topic.

<<People are saved from their sins by the death and resurrection of Christ.>>

Well, you nearly got it right.

People are actually saved from their sins by believing in and accepting Jesus Christ and believing in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

What do you think Paul was preaching on all those mission trips? Do good works, Jesus will judge?

@rajk999 said
In verses 16 and 17 Paul added another Christian who is destroyed because he defiled the temple of God / himself. Did you omit that verse willfully ?

No, I did not willfully omit those verses.

Let's be clear about what the word "destroy" means in that context.

Transliteration: phtheirō
Pronunciation: fthi'-ro
Part of Speech: verb
Root Word (Etymology): Probably strengthened from phthio (to pine or waste)

Outline of Biblical Usage:

to corrupt, to destroy

in the opinion of the Jews, the temple was corrupted or "destroyed" when anyone defiled or in the slightest degree damaged anything in it, or if its guardians neglected their duties
to lead away a Christian church from that state of knowledge and holiness in which it ought to abide.

to be destroyed, to perish
in an ethical sense, to corrupt, deprave

KJV Translation Count: 8x
The KJV translates Strongs G5351 in the following manner: corrupt (4x), corrupt (one's) self (1x), be corrupt (1x), defile (1x), destroy (1x).

Strong's Definitions: φθείρω phtheírō, fthi'-ro; probably strengthened from φθίω phthíō (to pine or waste); properly, to shrivel or wither, i.e. to spoil (by any process) or (generally) to ruin (especially figuratively, by moral influences, to deprave):—corrupt (self), defile, destroy.

I believe that if one should "defile" the temple of ones body, based on the meaning of that word "destroy" within its context, God will cause, or allow, that one to "pine", "waste" or be "depraved" in their Christian experience.

I don't think it means the loss of salvation.

@rajk999 said
I have never seen anyone say 'works saves', not even me.
I have repeatedly said, Jesus saves, Jesus died so that mankind can be saved.

Also true is that faith does not save either.
Nobody is saved by faith.
James cleared that up.
Paul too, said it.

People are saved from their sins by the death and resurrection of Christ.

Lets get back to the main topic.

Agreed. People are saved by grace through faith.

@pb1022 said
<<People are saved from their sins by the death and resurrection of Christ.>>

Well, you nearly got it right.

People are actually saved from their sins by believing in and accepting Jesus Christ and believing in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

What do you think Paul was preaching on all those mission trips? Do good works, Jesus will judge?

In fact, if everyone is saved by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and doesn’t need to accept and believe in Him and in His Resurrection, why mention Jesus Christ at all?

What Jesus did and said 2,000 years ago is really irrelevant in your false doctrine. Just mention keeping the commandments and doing good works. No reason to bring up Jesus Christ at all.

If people gain entrance to Heaven based on their good works, why wasn’t Paul exhorting people to do good works?

When Paul (and others) discussed keeping the commandments, they were telling people evidence of saving faith is reflected in outward behavior.

Good works and better keeping of the commandments are evidence of salvation, not a requirement of it.

@rajk999 said
Lets get back to the main topic.

It's your thread! 🙂