At what point in time does salvation begin?

Originally posted by Rajk999

Will all flesh get eternal life?
I can quote you a dozen passages where salvation means Christ

Originally posted by KellyJay
[b]Your dogma is the red letters of the bible, which don't always fit with the rest of the bible.

So I'm clear on your meaning, are you suggesting Jesus' words do not fit the rest of the
Bible or their dogma?[/b]

Originally posted by sonship

Will all flesh get eternal life?
I can quote you a dozen passages where salvation means Christ

I have no problem with either viewing Christ Himself as salvation or no problem with realizing universal salvation is an error.

And it is a very small thing to me to be judged by you.

You deny new covenant [b]regeneration before th ...[text shortened]... regenerated ..." (1 Peter 1:23) [/b]

You can't be trusted as a teacher of the New Testament.[/b]

Originally posted by Rajk999
What I deny is YOUR BOGUS translation. The KJV says:

[b]Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (1 Peter 1:23 KJV)

Your bogus translation was written by regenerationists who do not believe that they have to wait for the return of Jesus to get a new incorruptible body.
...[text shortened]... ke the wind? 😀 You and your bogus doctrine is a comedy act and has nothing to do with Christ.[/b]

Originally posted by Rajk999

Your bogus translation was written by regenerationists who do not believe that they have to wait for the return of Jesus to get a new incorruptible body.

I have read with interest the copies of translations of New Testament epistles in the Recovery Version. This is a version which I had not previously met. The version seems to me to be an accurate and fairly literal rendering of the Greek. The user of this version will get a precise impression of what the sacred text says.

With all good wishes:
Yours Sincerely,
F.F. Bruce

Frederick Fyvie Bruce FBA (12 October 1910 – 11 September 1990), usually cited as F. F. Bruce, was a Biblical scholar who supported the historical reliability of the New Testament. His first book, New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? (1943), was voted by the American evangelical periodical Christianity Today in 2006 as one of the top 50 books "which had shaped evangelicals".[1]

God already knows that there is no goodness in man. The flesh cannot please Him. The flesh is utterly corrupted and irreparable. Because the flesh is absolutely beyond repair, God cannot expect man, after believing in His Son, to have anything to please Him if He does not give man something new, something other than the flesh. Therefore, when a man believes that the Lord Jesus died for him and receives the Lord Jesus to be his personal Savior, God gives him a new life, that is, His own uncreated life. This is what the Bible calls regeneration. God does not change our flesh; rather, He gives His life to us. Regardless of whether or not a man has been regenerated, his flesh is corrupted just the same. The flesh in a sinner is the same as the flesh in a saint. Although a man may be born again, his flesh does not become better because of the new birth. One's regeneration does not affect his flesh a bit and cannot improve him or make him good. No matter what, the flesh is the flesh, and it can never be changed. God does not use His life to educate and train the flesh. Rather, He uses the new life He gives to man to overcome the flesh.

"Of course !! New Testament regeneration is only all about a new restored earth during the millennial kingdom. THAT I can understand well enough.

Now fight against any other sense of enlivening in God's salvation. "

Originally posted by checkbaiter
You don't believe the Epistles are the words of Jesus Christ himself, that is one of your big problems.

Originally posted by Rajk999

Sonship has presented a BOGUS translation of 1 Peter 1 23 to support his regeneration doctrine.

1 Peter 1:23King James Version (KJV)

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

"As newborn babes long for the guileless milk of the word, that by it you may grow unto salvation" (2:2)

"And if you call upon as Father the One who without respect of persons judges ... pass the time of your sojourning in fear, Knowing that you WERE REDEEMED ..." (1:17,18a)

Originally posted by sonship

Sonship has presented a BOGUS translation of 1 Peter 1 23 to support his regeneration doctrine.

No the Apostle Peter writes what SUPPORTS the words of Jesus.

And F.F. Bruce found the Recovery Version to be a good translation from Greek to English.

And even if an argument from some authority you protest, most English translations ...[text shortened]... he time of your sojourning in fear, Knowing that you WERE REDEEMED ..." (1:17,18a) [/quote][/b]

Born Again
IS NOT THE SAME AS
Regeneration

Its Simple.

- Born Again is a new beginning in Christ, the same physical body but a new spiritual being

" So that if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, they have become new. " (2 Cpr. 5:17)

- During this life the Christian must follow Christ being guided by the Comforter, by Gods Spirit etc

"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit." (1 cor. 6:17)

- Regeneration is the end and occurs when Christ returns and rewards the righteous

- Then and only then, can these regenerated SPIRIT beings, with a new body enter into the Kingdom of God.

"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit." (1 Cor. 6:17)

Flesh and blood cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

You are still flesh and blood.

Originally posted by sonship

Born Again
IS NOT THE SAME AS
Regeneration

[b]First Peter 1:23 is born again = regenerated.

Its Simple.

Rajk999 is simply incorrect as will be shown yet again.

- Born Again is a new beginning in Christ, the same physical body but a new spiritual being

To the church in Corinth Paul ...[text shortened]... riencing the transformation of my soul.

You know nothing about the three part being of man.[/b]

Originally posted by Rajk999
Apparently Paul does not agree with you:

[i]Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but [b]we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the de ...[text shortened]... re saying the very same thing and yet you gravitate to the foolishness preached by fallible men.

Commentary for: Titus 3:5 from the REV


he saved us, not by righteous works that we ourselves did, but on the basis of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of a new origin and a renewal by holy spirit,

“righteous works.” The Greek is emphatic, but becomes unclear when translated literally into English. The Greek phrase, ergōn tōn en dikaiosunē (ἔργων τῶν ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ), literally translates as: “works, the [ones] in righteousness.” By making “righteousness” into a noun, it adds emphasis to it in the Greek sentence. It is emphatic, and could be more literally understood as, “not by works, the ones done in connection with [that are connected to] righteousness,” perhaps better expanded for easier reading to: “not by works: those works that are done that are associated with righteousness.” In other words, no one is saved by works; those righteous acts that people do. Those will not save anyone. Given the fact that the emphatic nature of the sentence is usually lost in English, and trying to produce the Greek structure only causes confusion, (what is a “work done in righteousness”?), it seemed much clearer to make “righteousness” adjectival and just go with “righteous works” (cp. NAB or NIV). It is amazing that the Word of God can so clearly in many places tell us that no one is saved by good works, and yet somehow when people do not do righteous works they feel their salvation is in jeopardy.

“on the basis of his mercy.” We could not be saved on the basis of our works, but we can be on the basis of His mercy. The RSV has “in virtue of his mercy,” which is somewhat archaic vocabulary today, but catches the sense of the passage, and so does The Source New Testament, which has, “due to His mercy.”

“new origin.” The Greek word is paliggenesia (#3824 παλιγγενεσία, this is a compound noun made up of the words palin (#3825 πάλιν, meaning “again,” and genesis (#1078 γένεσις meaning “origin,” or “beginning.” The Greeks sometimes used the word genesis when referring to birth, because birth is the beginning or origin of our independent life on earth. However, genesis does not technically mean “birth,” and so we must be careful not to confuse genesis (#1078 γένεσις with gennēsis (#1083 γέννησις, which properly means “birth” (the word gennēsis (#1083 γέννησις does not appear anywhere in the best manuscripts of the New Testament (see commentary on Matt. 1:18)).

In this context, paliggenesia refers to the new origin that Christians have when they are born again and receive holy spirit. It is one of the three words used for the individual new birth of a Christian that guarantees him everlasting life. The other two are anagennaō (#313 ἀναγεννάω, which means “born again,” see 1 Peter 1:23, and apokueō (#616; ἀποκυέω; from the Greek prefix apo, “away from,” and kueō, “to be pregnant”. It means “to give birth to;” see James 1:18. These three words all refer to the New Birth that happens to the Christian when he makes Christ the Lord in his life (cp. Rom. 10:9).

When a person gets “born again” (anagennaō; #313 ἀναγεννάω; see 1 Peter 1:23), he is not the same person. He is truly “born again,” a brand new “baby,” if you will, because now he is God’s child. He has a “new origin” (Titus 3:5), and is a “new creation” (2 Cor. 5:17). He has a new divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4), and it is at war with his old flesh nature (Gal. 5:17). In spite of his sin, he is “holy,” a “saint” (see 1 Cor. 1:2), because he has “holy spirit” sealed inside him (Eph. 1:13), which guarantees his place in future Kingdom of the Messiah on earth.

Paliggenesia is also used of the new origin, or new creation, of the world in the Messianic Age (cp. commentary on Matthew 19:28).

“by.” There is no word “by” in the Greek text. The words “holy spirit” are in the genitive case: “renewal of holy spirit.” This is most likely a genitive of production (Cp. Wallace, Exegetical Syntax, p. 104-106). That being the case, an expanded translation would be, “He saved us through the washing of a new origin and a renewal produced by holy spirit.” In the salvation process, the “new beginning” and the “renewal” are both produced by holy spirit.

“holy spirit.” This refers to the holy spirit that is the gift of God. [For more information on the uses of “holy spirit”, see Appendix 6: “Usages of ‘Spirit’”.]

The Holy Spirit is God practically everywhere in the NT.

Sometimes in English translation the translators are not sure if they should capitalize the S in Spirit or use small s in spirit.

The reason for this is logical. In the new birth the capital S Spirit of God is joined to the small s spirit of man to become "one spirit".

First Cor. 6:17

" He who is joined to the Lord is one [mingled, blended] spirit."

" God is Spirit; and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in reality." (John 4:24)

" But when He, the Spirit of reality, comes, He will guide you into all the reality; for He will not speak from Himself; but whatever He hears He will speakl and He will disclose to you what is to come.

He shall glorify Me, for He shall receive of Mine and shall disclose it to you." (John 16
13-15)

" ... The words which I speak to you, I do not speak from Myself; but the Father who abides in Me, He does His works." (John 14:10)

"And the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom." (2 Cor. 3:17)

" The Lord of verse 16 is the Spirit ... which gives life, verse 6, meaning, 'the Lord', as here spoken of, 'Christ', ' is the Spirit', identical with the Holy Spirit. ... Christ here, is the Spirit of Christ."

Originally posted by sonship
There is a difference between someone faithfully standing with the Scripture and someone who is just very stubborn and cannot see that their Bible teaching is wrong.

You're just being stubborn.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
They do, but ToO thinks that because Jesus said you are free, it meant from from sin, then he no longer sins. I submit that if you don't understand other scripture in the Epistles, then what Jesus meant was something else, because clearly we all sin at one point or another.
ToO is stuck trying to explain that he no longer sins. But he avoids the topic.