At what point in time does salvation begin?

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
Of course not. Because, you see, he knew in advance it was going to change, and he was quite certain it would.

Ah, gotcha.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
But doesn't 'changing his mind' bring into question his infallibility?

No, circumstances change, and he changes his mind to make the best out of bad circumstances. He makes lemonade out of lemons.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
No, circumstances change, and he changes his mind to make the best out of bad circumstances. He makes lemonade out of lemons.

And His omniscience?

If God is all knowing, why didn't he anticipate the arrival of the lemons?

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
And His omniscience?

If God is all knowing, why didn't he anticipate the arrival of the lemons?

That is a traditional trait given to God that I am not sure about.
An open view says God does know almost everything. He knows your thoughts and is 99% correct on what you will do next, but there is that 1% possibility that you might do the unexpected.
Even then, he is prepared in what to do next.
I think he did prepare for the lemons.
I think that is a sensible approach.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Someone who receives Jesus as Lord has to honestly submit to him. God is not mocked, he knows the heart.
But someone who receives in all honesty and humility and then is weak because he does not make an honest effort to study and walk the walk, because they are distracted by the world or some other reason is still saved. It is seed created in them, it c ...[text shortened]... .
Again there are grave consequences and I don't know the details but they will still be saved.

Is this in the Bible : It is seed created in them, it cannot be undone?

Rather I should say that there is nothing in the Bible that says something cannot be undone.

The closest passage to what you say is this:

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not:
whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.
For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin,
because he is born of God.
In this the children of God are manifest,
and the children of the devil:
whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, .. (1 John 3:6-10 KJV)

John says:
1. Those who sin are children of the devil
2. Those who live righteously are children of God.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Is this in the Bible : It is seed created in them, it cannot be undone?

Rather I should say that there is nothing in the Bible that says something cannot be undone.

The closest passage to what you say is this:

[i]Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not:
whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man de ...[text shortened]...
1. Those who sin are children of the devil
2. Those who live righteously are children of God.

Not discussing this with you again, we have covered this before and the scripture has been submitted before.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
No, circumstances change, and he changes his mind to make the best out of bad circumstances. He makes lemonade out of lemons.

Again I disagree, I believe He sets up what He wants and allows for us to change the
circumstances so we either turn towards Him or not on our own. The condemnation we
are under before turning out lives over to Him is sure and we are without a doubt heading
where I sins will take us while under grace that sin is covered by the blood. He works it
all out for those that love Him, circumstance do not surprise Him where He has to think
fast and recover from something that comes up.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Again I disagree, I believe He sets up what He wants and allows for us to change the
circumstances so we either turn towards Him or not on our own. The condemnation we
are under before turning out lives over to Him is sure and we are without a doubt heading
where I sins will take us while under grace that sin is covered by the blood. He works it
all out ...[text shortened]... stance do not surprise Him where He has to think
fast and recover from something that comes up.

Do you believe tradition in that the devil has to ask God for permission to attack a Christian, or anybody?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Do you believe tradition in that the devil has to ask God for permission to attack a Christian, or anybody?

We know he has had to, if it is required is beyond me.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Again I disagree, I believe He sets up what He wants and allows for us to change the
circumstances so we either turn towards Him or not on our own. The condemnation we
are under before turning out lives over to Him is sure and we are without a doubt heading
where I sins will take us while under grace that sin is covered by the blood. He works it
all out ...[text shortened]... stance do not surprise Him where He has to think
fast and recover from something that comes up.

No, he is not surprised, but Satan changes circumstances as well as us. By change his mind, I also mean do something different than what was originally planned.
Somethings are unchangeable. God can and will make certain things happen and nothing can stop him.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
No, he is not surprised, but Satan changes circumstances as well as us. By change his mind, I also mean do something different than what was originally planned.
Somethings are unchangeable. God can and will make certain things happen and nothing can stop him.

As I pointed out that is done, but it isn't that something comes up He isn't aware of it will
be something that comes up that He has already setup for.

Originally posted by KellyJay
As I pointed out that is done, but it isn't that something comes up He isn't aware of it will
be something that comes up that He has already setup for.

My point is I do not think God knows all the future. Otherwise freewill is gone.
If I have a decision to make, I can go one of two ways. God has a pretty good idea what I will choose, but not 100% certainty. Yes, he can prepare for either.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
My point is I do not think God knows all the future. Otherwise freewill is gone.
If I have a decision to make, I can go one of two ways. God has a pretty good idea what I will choose, but not 100% certainty. Yes, he can prepare for either.

Why would free will be gone? Knowing and causing are two different things.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Why would free will be gone? Knowing and causing are two different things.

Are you a Calvinist? If so, it matters not what we do, it is all preordained.

Look at Wiki about open Theism...maybe you will get a better picture...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_theism

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Are you a Calvinist? If so, it matters not what we do, it is all preordained.

Look at Wiki about open Theism...maybe you will get a better picture...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_theism

If it is all done without us really having a choice then God is playing make believe with us
and we are robots and the whole thing is a play with a preordained outcome. If God is
true and cannot lie you and I have choices in the here and now. Choices can only be
made by someone with the will to make them, forced to play a part in a play by living out
a life without real choices is no different than a character in a novel or robot.

I believe only God could create a universe where others on their own can actually make a
choice free from being forced into it by God.

God with His knowledge doesn't force anyone into it, it is our choice and God waits for us
to make them. We cannot be judged for something that we have no choice in the matter, I
can be disliked for having the color eyes I have but it was something I was born with I did
not choose it.

So where we are is a fallen world where choices were made that created flaws into the
human condition from the freedom we were designed to have. Now we are bound by the
corruption of sin, now we are in a world where the 'g'od of this world does want to force
us into choices. Now we are in bodies where the flesh wants what it wants. Now to get
back to freedom we need the source of choices God in our lives! With God we do not live
to feed our fleshly desires, or the corruption through fear.

If God can be surprised, if God can be mystified in any choice He can be wrong at any
time because of the unknown.