another bloody blood question!

Originally posted by stellspalfie
blimey, scary stuff and a good example of how j.w's use their non violent approach. i wonder if the men would have remained so passive if the aggressors had got inside of the church and started beating the women and children?

what would you do if they got inside and started hitting women and children? galveston gives the opinion that it is fine to fight back in this situation. is he wrong or correct?

the brothers formed a human barricade so as to block entry to the premises, had anyone got inside its hard to say what would have happened, galveston is entitled to do what is incumbent upon him for the protection of him and his family.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
thanks, thats answers a lot for me. if you dont mind me asking more questions, its fine if you dont want to (i get the feeling you and robbie feel the questioning your beliefs is a form of attack).

i understand that if the householder feels threatened he may use physical violence to protect himself and his family. so my question if the intruder was o ...[text shortened]... e house, or would the householder need to wait until the intruder had actually got in the house?

Your welcome. I'm glad you understood it overall as opposed to another here that seems to have a very difficult time with understanding our comments on this.
It's not that we really feel we are getting attacked but it just gets tiresome to never be able to have a couple here "get it' but I guess that's part of posting on a public forurm.
Maybe we should just not answer? lol.
But anyway again every situation is so different with so many variables it is hard to answer exactly what anyone would do including myself. We all are imperfect and react so differently when under attack by someone and it is hard to say in advance what any of us would do.
That's why we need to seriously train ourselves mentally with Gods view in our hearts. And we need to clearly understand the consequences if we do take anothers life, even in self defence.
He tells us not to kill, but he also see's all and if we do as a last resort accidently kill, he will know exactly what happened.
One must always keep that in mind in every decision if one is confronted with a life threatening situation and do everything possible to not cross that line and kill another human being.

But in your example you are asking about, no, one could not attack first and for a couple reasons. First would be if you knew for some reason that the attacker was coming to you location, why not just leave and avoid that? Or call the local police for help if you feel you have time?
Or what if you had a weapon and in fear of them and then possibly not reacting correctly, you kill a wrong person that just happened to be at your front door?
What if you had a gun and did shot at them but the bullitt went thru the next doors wall and killed someone there?

As I said there are too many variables to really answer you. But we would never attack first from any situation I can even dream of.
If you can leave to avoid the whole thing, leave.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
the brothers formed a human barricade so as to block entry to the premises, had anyone got inside its hard to say what would have happened, galveston is entitled to do what is incumbent upon him for the protection of him and his family.

Exactly Robbie. If they had gotten in, none of us know how each of us would react. We are all imperfect and all handle fear of our life's differently. But all we can do is always keep our God's view in the front of our mind and try as hard as we can to preserve life, and pray to Jehovah to help us always to make the right decisions.
I think we can see this no doubt happened in this case with this Kingdom Hall being attacked. It was violent and some blood was shed. But as quickly as it started, it stopped. There were more then a few in that building praying to Jehovah and it worked.
But on the other hand what would have been the outcome if the Brothers started to fight instead of just blocking their blows? I think we all know it would have turned out much, much worse.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
the brothers formed a human barricade so as to block entry to the premises, had anyone got inside its hard to say what would have happened, galveston is entitled to do what is incumbent upon him for the protection of him and his family.

yawn.

Originally posted by galveston75
There were more then a few in that building praying to Jehovah and it worked.

But didn't one of the Jehovah's Witnesses call the police? Wasn't it the police coming that "worked" ultimately and brought the incident to an end?

Originally posted by FMF
But didn't one of the Jehovah's Witnesses call the police? Wasn't it the police coming that "worked" ultimately and brought the incident to an end?

I would think so. But what does that have to do with prayer? Are you saying that the police were the only factor in those idiots not coming in? Were they there from the beginning? No they weren't.
So if you are implying that God had nothing to do with them not going in you must know something I don't. Did he call you or send an email telling you he had nothing to do with their protection? Just asking...

Originally posted by galveston75
Your welcome. I'm glad you understood it overall as opposed to another here that seems to have a very difficult time with understanding our comments on this.
It's not that we really feel we are getting attacked but it just gets tiresome to never be able to have a couple here "get it' but I guess that's part of posting on a public forurm.
Maybe we sho ...[text shortened]... om any situation I can even dream of.
If you can leave to avoid the whole thing, leave.

again, a good informative response, i really respect you saying that the variables dictate you are not always sure how you would respond in situations. maybe i misunderstood the nature of your religion. i thought the guidance you received from god meant you had enough information on how to react in any given situation. i can see why me setting so many variables would seem pointless to you now.

however, one other thing im still trying to understand and maybe my example in the previous post was badly written, so ill try rewording it, if you dont have the answer ( its fine to admit if you dont). but if a scenario existed where the chances of survival for you and your family was almost zero and your only chance of survival was a preemptive attack, does the bible give you guidance on becoming the attacker in order to ensure survival?

Originally posted by galveston75
I would think so. But what does that have to do with prayer? Are you saying that the police were the only factor in those idiots not coming in? Were they there from the beginning? No they weren't.
So if you are implying that God had nothing to do with them not going in you must know something I don't. Did he call you or send an email telling you he had nothing to do with their protection? Just asking...

Just trying to get to the heart of this 'principle' of yours.

The incident demonstrates that the Bulgarian JWs were willing to rely on - and be rescued by - the measured and appropriate violence (or threat of violence) used by the police to protect them from attackers. Why did they accept the help of people willing to meet violence with violence on their behalf?

Would your Bulgarian "brothers" in turn be able to reciprocate and use appropriate violence to protect those policemen or their families if they were under attack from a mob, like the Bulgarian "brothers" themselves had been in the clip, if they were in a situation where they could assist those police?

Would the Bulgarian "brothers" let those police fend for themselves, even though the police came to their rescue? It seems more like a lack of principle than anything else.

Originally posted by FMF
But didn't one of the Jehovah's Witnesses call the police? Wasn't it the police coming that "worked" ultimately and brought the incident to an end?

Reminds me of a Christening i went to recently. At the end of the service the collection pot was passed round, when that was done the pots were brought to the front where the Rev in charge gave a prayer thanking God for the money. Which i thought was a little strange when surely thanking the people the put the money into the collection pots would have been more appropriate?!

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Reminds me of a Christening i went to recently. At the end of the service the collection pot was passed round, when that was done the pots were brought to the front where the Rev in charge gave a prayer thanking God for the money. Which i thought was a little strange when surely thanking the people the put the money into the collection pots would have been more appropriate?!

they had a collection at a christening what a cave of robbers

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
they had a collection at a christening what a cave of robbers

It was two Christenings within the normal Sunday Church service.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
It was two Christenings within the normal Sunday Church service.

still a cave of robbers, Christ would have whupped them out of the place, what did you learn at church?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
again, a good informative response, i really respect you saying that the variables dictate you are not always sure how you would respond in situations. maybe i misunderstood the nature of your religion. i thought the guidance you received from god meant you had enough information on how to react in any given situation. i can see why me setting so many v ...[text shortened]... e attack, does the bible give you guidance on becoming the attacker in order to ensure survival?

Not that I'm aware of. God has not in every possible situation given exact instructions on how to react. The reason again is there are uncountable amount of variables, don't you agree?

What if you had 10 minutes warning and your sitting with a screwdriver in your hand and he says he's only going to cut your hand off, or what if you have 7 1/2 minutes and you are in a car but the sun is in your eyes and you can't see where to drive to get away, or what if he's coming down from the top of a hill and running at you and your back is against the wall and he looks crazy, etc, etc. Get my point?

As I said every situation is different and we all will react differently. God tells us not to kill but he also knows and does not expect us not to react. The life we have is a gift that we are to respect as well.
I hope this helps as I think I've answered the best I know how too.

Originally posted by galveston75
Not that I'm aware of. God has not in every possible situation given exact instructions on how to react. The reason again is there are uncountable amount of variables, don't you agree?

What if you had 10 minutes warning and your sitting with a screwdriver in your hand and he says he's only going to cut your hand off, or what if you have 7 1/2 minutes ...[text shortened]... to respect as well.
I hope this helps as I think I've answered the best I know how too.

for me, i could never follow gods rules as laid out by yourself and the little help youve had from robbie, as they are too vague. if i was attempting to become a j.w. i still would not be sure if i could join a militia to protect my people if it was the only way to avoid certain death.

to get into heaven all people need to become j.w's in your world view. there are parts of the world where people have to fight to survive, so issues regarding what they can do to survive becomes extremely important. thats why i started with the ww2. if hitler had invaded britain or america then thousands of people would be killed because of their race or nationality. the only way to avoid it was to attack back, to go to war.

so is it better to wait until the soldiers are at your door before you fight or is it better to join an army and stop the soldiers from getting to the door? can you see how its hard to understand why you can do the first example but not the second?

i understand that there are lots of variables but if by answering them helps an outsider understand how your faith works, whats the problem in answering them?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
for me, i could never follow gods rules as laid out by yourself and the little help youve had from robbie, as they are too vague. if i was attempting to become a j.w. i still would not be sure if i could join a militia to protect my people if it was the only way to avoid certain death.

to get into heaven all people need to become j.w's in your world ...[text shortened]... ng them helps an outsider understand how your faith works, whats the problem in answering them?

I believe I have answered them.......