Absolute Certainty

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
As written above:

"...while all that is accessible to the senses (the outward appearances) remains unchanged."

So no, the wine would still just taste of wine. Would be good though to hear a Catholic's account of this, as does sound rather odd.

Setting aside that my own belief in God is considered odd by you atheist types, the Catholics benchmark oddness with some of their beliefs. I sometimes wonder what the domestic situation would be like if a Catholic married a JW.

Originally posted by divegeester
I sometimes wonder what the domestic situation would be like if a Catholic married a JW.

Sounds like the makings of a good sitcom.

Perhaps, for extra comedic value, we could make the catholic gay and the Jehovah Witness a troubled vampire. Throw in a sarcastic atheist and we have a potential hit on our hands.

Originally posted by divegeester
I didn't really think about it and prefer to not put constraints on this "god". Let's assume it could be any time of god. considering some scientists consider an infinite multiverse to be a possibility, let's also assume a god could be infinite in how it is defined.

Divegeester the bearded meddler in the sky is not the main problem with this. That is just a wisecrack to hold the theist in contempt. Maybe the "standard" theistic god has to have a beard.

He wrote:

Any of these should give you serious doubts about a the standard theistic personal God:
1. An understanding of the scientific method and general principles of science.
2. An understanding of physics - especially as it applies to astronomy / cosmology.
3. A good understanding of evolution, the diversity of life and biology.
4. An understanding of the human brain and how it works.

Its hard to pick any one fact because it is a good understanding of the whole that would lead you to the realisation that there is no bearded fellow in the sky meddling with things.

Because he doesn't have "any one fact" from these disciplines he leaves the matter vague. It is hard to mention "any one fact" so we should assume that a combination of facts will do the job to strongly negate the possibility of a "standard theistic personal god".

I wonder how many facts from these different areas of knowledge he has to combine to make the point. I haven't read through the whole thread. Maybe some 12 or 17 or 22 or some number of collected facts from varied sciences will be enumerated to do his job.

I'll look a little further to see if such a set of facts makes a theistic "standard" (whatever that means,) god cannot exist. If I don't see his list I'll assume he expects us to take it on faith that such a list can be assembled - someday by someone.

How many collected facts from the scientific method, cosmology, astronomy, physics, evolution theory, life's diversity, the human brain will do the job for twhitehead for obliterating a belief that a theistic God is ?

28 ?
76 ?
249 ?

Originally posted by divegeester
I am not certain that God exists but I hope he does. I am not an absolutist and should there be an afterlife and I'm shown to be wrong about my belief in the nature of God I would not be entirely surprised.

I also completely accept that despite the wonder of nature, the universe, human beings there is no actual empricial evidence that a God of any na ...[text shortened]... rcial perspective. So I am surprised that I cling to my faith. Or perhaps my faith clings to me.

Originally posted by divegeester
"I am not certain that God exists but I hope he does..."

Your honesty and candor are exemplary.
Please comment on your previous self professed status as a Christian
[believer in the person and work of Jesus Christ]. Thank you.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
I am 'pretty certain' that God doesn't exist.

Only closed minds deal in absolutes.

So there are unlimited UNIVERSES

And then we find ourselves in one universe with unlimited planets and celestial bodies and suns and moons and planets with rings and planets with conscious living beings and animals that all replicate through reproduction, and these conscious living beings are fed with thousands of different healthy foods and spices.

Then the earth planet has laws and principles that are necessary for things to exist the way they are (perfectly)

And you are fairly certain that God doesn't exist.

God is the cause of all causes and the Supreme conscious controller of all that is manifest and all that is un-manifest and all which is material and all which is spiritual.

And to deliver the great shock of all shocks you have said only closed minds deal in absolutes.

Tell me what sought of sick mind defends this belief.......... (explosions and chaos has resulted in the perfection of this creation and everything in it)

I see a little blue and white with red crest bird, flying in the air/sky and making a nest in a tree and producing 4 more little birds through reproduction ...................and I know absolutely that God exists.

Please dear Sir.......................make me one tiny little ant.

You cannot ............CASE CLOSED and atheism has been defeated one more time in this forum.

And it was defeated by a little bird and the non-appearance of an ant..

Since God is transcendental and spiritual he cannot be tested and poked and prodded with a material test-tube and prongs.

He can however be contacted and realized with purified intelligence.

Because that tiny speck on top of your shoulders cannot even begin to search out God in your dull contaminated and empty mundane head........................so you have zero chance to experiment in finding or contacting God.

Not having the qualifications to realize God ....................you cannot make any comments at all whether God exists or not.

You are disqualified to comment.

Commenting............would be like a baby mumbling "mathematics doesn't exist" because the baby doesn't know what mathematics is or even how to find such a thing called mathematics.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by divegeester
"I am not certain that God exists but I hope he does..."

Your honesty and candor are exemplary.
Please comment on your previous self professed status as a Christian
[believer in the person and work of Jesus Christ]. Thank you.

Honesty......................

When a person switches on his honest hat................he just has to look at the earth and everything in nature, and he cannot help but be 100000000% convinced of the existence of a Supreme Conscious Creator and Controller..............commonly called God.

Try it ...........................look around and ask yourself how did all the perfection get here.

Originally posted by Dasa

When a person switches on his honest hat................he just has to look at the earth and everything in nature, and he cannot help but be 100000000% convinced of the existence of a Supreme Conscious Creator and Controller..............commonly called God.

Dasa, have you ever read through the four gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John ?

Have you at least read through one of these, like for example Mark the shortest gospel, or Luke which has been described as the most beautiful book ever written.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by divegeester
"I am not certain that God exists but I hope he does..."

Your honesty and candor are exemplary.
Please comment on your previous self professed status as a Christian
[believer in the person and work of Jesus Christ]. Thank you.

What comment are you looking for?

Originally posted by Dasa
So there are unlimited UNIVERSES

And then we find ourselves in one universe with unlimited planets and celestial bodies and suns and moons and planets with rings and planets with conscious living beings and animals that all replicate through reproduction, and these conscious living beings are fed with thousands of different healthy foods and spices.

Then ...[text shortened]... e the baby doesn't know what mathematics is or even how to find such a thing called mathematics.

If you are reincarnated as an ant, i will gladly step on you.

Originally posted by Dasa
Please dear Sir.......................make me one tiny little ant.

You're trying to prove creation by proving an ant can't be created.

🙄

Originally posted by divegeester
Setting aside that my own belief in God is considered odd by you atheist types, the Catholics benchmark oddness with some of their beliefs.

I grew up in an Anglican household, and apart from a the Virgin Mary and one or two other things, the Anglicans and the Catholics are pretty similar. At the time I saw the Anglicans and Catholics as the more sensible versions of Christianity and all the 'born again', 'creationist' and 'speaking in tongues' cults as being way out there.
I must also add that the vast majority of the members of both denominations (Anglicans and Catholics) don't actually know most of the dogma officially pronounced by the higher ups is. That is for bishops / popes and theologians to argue over.

Originally posted by sonship
How many collected facts from the scientific method, cosmology, astronomy, physics, evolution theory, life's diversity, the human brain will do the job for twhitehead for obliterating a belief that a theistic God is ?

If you honestly wanted to know the answer, you would have asked me, instead of addressing your post to divegester. I'll give you the answer anyway: a lot more than your estimates. There is a reason it takes years to get a basic degree in any one of those subjects and even longer to obtain a higher degree. You won't be understanding evolution by memorising 5 facts or even 249 facts. You actually have to study it and understand how it works. To understand what I am talking about in 3, I expect you to understand:
a) the basics of how evolution works.
b) a basic understanding of the history of life on earth including much of the diversity of life past and present.
c) a basic understanding of DNA and evolution at the level of DNA.
I think 3 university level courses should suffice. I don't promise you will be an atheist at the end of them, but you will certainly be questioning some of your beliefs.

I have actually started threads on some of the issues before and for most key topics the majority of theists refuse to take part.
I am happy to start one on the human brain if you are willing to discuss it.

Originally posted by sonship

When a person switches on his honest hat................he just has to look at the earth and everything in nature, and he cannot help but be 100000000% convinced of the existence of a Supreme Conscious Creator and Controller..............commonly called God.

Dasa, have you ever read through the four gospels of [b]Matthew, Mark, Luke, and ...[text shortened]... hortest gospel, or [b]Luke which has been described as the most beautiful book ever written.[/b]

Sorry but with respect a meat eating and animal slaughtering religion attracts me with some difficulty.

Did you know there are many life lessons and uplifting words of wisdom in the works of Shakespeare that equal the Bible.

Every wise and uplifting thing that you can find in the Bible....................is also in the Vedas but 100,000 times more.

I have not presented in the forum the many wonderful prayers and texts from the Vedas because 99.9% of persons in the forum do not accept the authority of the Vedas due to insincerity and elitism.

In fact their is one Sanskrit poem called the Mahabharata in the Vedas which is 90,000 verses long.

However the Srimad-Bhagavatama translated by Srila Prubhupada is 18,000 verses and that is straight in front of me as we speak and is my favorite read.

Here is a very nice prayer to the Lord (Lord Chaitanya praying to Sri Krsna Bhagavan)

Śrī Śrī Śikṣāṣṭaka
Eight Instructions
Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu

Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu instructed His disciples to write books on the science of Kṛṣṇa, a task which His followers have continued to carry out down to the present day. The elaborations and expositions on the philosophy taught by Lord Caitanya are, in fact, the most voluminous, exacting, and consistent, due to the system of disciplic succession. Although Lord Caitanya was widely renowned as a scholar in His youth, He left only eight verses, called Śikṣāṣṭaka. These eight verses clearly reveal His mission and precepts. These supremely valuable prayers are translated herein.


ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇaṁ
śreyaḥ-kairava-candrikā-vitaraṇaṁ vidyā-vadhū-jīvanam
ānandāmbudhi-vardhanaṁ prati-padaṁ pūrṇāmṛtāsvādanaṁ
sarvātma-snapanaṁ paraṁ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṇkīrtanam

1) Glory to the śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtana, which cleanses the heart of all the dust accumulated for years and extinguishes the fire of conditional life, of repeated birth and death. This saṅkīrtana movement is the prime benediction for humanity at large because it spreads the rays of the benediction moon. It is the life of all transcendental knowledge. It increases the ocean of transcendental bliss, and it enables us to fully taste the nectar for which we are always anxious.

nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija-sarva-śaktis
tatrārpitā niyamitaḥ smaraṇe na kālaḥ
etādṛśī tava kṛpā bhagavan mamāpi
durdaivam īdṛśam ihājani nānurāgaḥ

2) O my Lord, Your holy name alone can render all benediction to living beings, and thus You have hundreds and millions of names, like Kṛṣṇa and Govinda. In these transcendental names You have invested all Your transcendental energies. There are not even hard and fast rules for chanting these names. O my Lord, out of kindness You enable us to easily approach You by Your holy names, but I am so unfortunate that I have no attraction for them.

tṛṇād api sunīcena
taror api sahiṣṇunā
amāninā mānadena
kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ

3) One should chant the holy name of the Lord in a humble state of mind, thinking oneself lower than the straw in the street; one should be more tolerant than a tree, devoid of all sense of false prestige, and should be ready to offer all respect to others. In such a state of mind one can chant the holy name of the Lord constantly.

na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarīṁ
kavitāṁ vā jagad-īśa kāmaye
mama janmani janmanīśvare
bhavatād bhaktir ahaitukī tvayi

4) O almighty Lord, I have no desire to accumulate wealth, nor do I desire beautiful women, nor do I want any number of followers. I only want Your causeless devotional service, birth after birth.

ayi nanda-tanuja kiṅkaraṁ
patitaṁ māṁ viṣame bhavāmbudhau
kṛpayā tava pāda-paṅkaja-
sthita-dhūlī-sadṛśaṁ vicintaya

5) O son of Mahārāja Nanda [Kṛṣṇa], I am Your eternal servitor, yet somehow or other I have fallen into the ocean of birth and death. Please pick me up from this ocean of death and place me as one of the atoms at Your lotus feet.

nayanaṁ galad-aśru-dhārayā
vadanaṁ gadgada-ruddhayā girā
pulakair nicitaṁ vapuḥ kadā
tava-nāma-grahaṇe bhaviṣyati

6) O my Lord, when will my eyes be decorated with tears of love flowing constantly when I chant Your holy name? When will my voice choke up, and when will the hairs of my body stand on end at the recitation of Your name?

yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa
cakṣuṣā prāvṛṣāyitam
śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ
govinda-viraheṇa me

7) O Govinda! Feeling Your separation, I am considering a moment to be like twelve years or more. Tears are flowing from my eyes like torrents of rain, and I am feeling all vacant in the world in Your absence.

āśliṣya vā pāda-ratāṁ pinaṣṭu mām
adarśanān marma-hatām-hatāṁ karotu vā
yathā tathā vā vidadhātu lampaṭo
mat-prāṇa-nāthas tu sa eva nāparaḥ

8) I know no one but Kṛṣṇa as my Lord, and He shall remain so even if He handles me roughly by His embrace or makes me brokenhearted by not being present before me. He is completely free to do anything and everything, for He is always my worshipful Lord, unconditionally.

Originally posted by Dasa
Sorry but with respect a meat eating and animal slaughtering religion attracts me with some difficulty.

Did you know there are many life lessons and uplifting words of wisdom in the works of Shakespeare that equal the Bible.

Every wise and uplifting thing that you can find in the Bible....................is also in the Vedas but 100,000 times more.

I h ...[text shortened]... letely free to do anything and everything, for He is always my worshipful Lord, unconditionally.

Thankyou. They are indeed beautiful poems.

Before you leave this earth I think you should read through Matthew, Mark, Luke, John about Jesus.

4) O almighty Lord, I have no desire to accumulate wealth, nor do I desire beautiful women, nor do I want any number of followers. I only want Your causeless devotional service, birth after birth.

Do you know who you were before you were born Dasa ?
If that person or creatures life is gone and the next one who you believe follows your birth and death has nothing to do with you, of what benefit is reincarnation to YOU - Dasa ?

Originally posted by twhitehead
I know about that, but how literal do they really mean it, and how many Catholics take it literally? If you took the wine and tested it for red blood cells, how many Catholics would be surprised if they didn't find any?

This is rich, coming from an atheist, many of whom whine and moan in this forum how the theists "just don't get it".

Theist: "This is what Catholics believe."
Atheist: "Yes, but how many of them really believe it?"

How many atheists really do "not believe"?