"There is something I recognise about religion that we evangelical atheists haven’t really grappled with yet, which is that it gives people a chance to surrender. What religion says to you, essentially, is: you’re not in control. Now, that’s a very liberating idea." - Brian Eno
Thoughts?
15 Jan 22
That's a very valid observation. In some arena's that I have seen where concern is expressed over the state of the world for instance, I have often heard lines to effect that "God is in control". The knock on effect I think is to partition the concern or put it into another "box" of the mind, as that problem is being taken care of by somebody else.
Whether that thought is true or not is another debate, which I'm sure will emerge. So far though, I think that your proposition is correct as I have seen and heard the same.
15 Jan 22
@medullah saidWell, to be fair to Brian and me, it's his proposition and not mine. I am not sure I agree 100% with it.
Whether that thought is true or not is another debate, which I'm sure will emerge. So far though, I think that your proposition is correct as I have seen and heard the same.
I don't see myself as an "evangelical atheist" and, having personally experienced Christian faith, I'd say that in many instances, if that faith permeates one's life, it is more a case of empowerment than surrender.
I think religiosity ~ wittingly or unwittingly ~ has more to do with coming to terms with death by aspiring to the notion that it is not 'the end' than it has to do with the aforementioned surrendering of control.
If it's about the solace of imagining immortality, then I think that might well be "a very liberating idea" as well.
15 Jan 22
@fmf saidI think you have that backward. In my faith, though God is sovereign in His sovereignty, He has made us like Him with the freedom to make choices. While without God through evolutions, being hardwired, we are products of genetics alone. I believe Dawkins said we are dancing to our DNA; I know I didn't quote him correctly. In that instance, your mind is just hardwired to make you do everything you do, and you have no more choices than dominos falling one after another in a line.
"There is something I recognise about religion that we evangelical atheists haven’t really grappled with yet, which is that it gives people a chance to surrender. What religion says to you, essentially, is: you’re not in control. Now, that’s a very liberating idea." - Brian Eno
Thoughts?
15 Jan 22
@kellyjay saidAnd who is here you think believes humans "...have no more choices than dominos falling one after another in a line"? Can you link to a thread where you were talking to someone who espoused this?
I believe Dawkins said we are dancing to our DNA; I know I didn't quote him correctly. In that instance, your mind is just hardwired to make you do everything you do, and you have no more choices than dominos falling one after another in a line.
15 Jan 22
@fmf saidDid I say someone here...read what is written.
And who is here you think believes humans "...have no more choices than dominos falling one after another in a line"? Can you link to a thread where you were talking to someone who espoused this?
15 Jan 22
@kellyjay saidAs an aside, how much choice does your hypothetical God have, I wonder? Does he/she have a choice as to whether to be God? Your 'Selfish Gene' reference isn't quite right; in this hypothesis it isn't our 'minds' which control our actions, it's our DNA which 'wants' us to see to its' continuation by making us want to make babies, or at least go through the motions, as it were. (It's the hormones, you know) In other respects we all of us have the freedom to be doctors or fishmongers, in other words how we otherwise live our lives.
I think you have that backward. In my faith, though God is sovereign in His sovereignty, He has made us like Him with the freedom to make choices. While without God through evolutions, being hardwired, we are products of genetics alone. I believe Dawkins said we are dancing to our DNA; I know I didn't quote him correctly. In that instance, your mind is just hardwired to make ...[text shortened]... do everything you do, and you have no more choices than dominos falling one after another in a line.
To bring us back to what I think is the thread topic, religion and belief in a god could be said to be the line of least resistance. If we were born, cared for and then abandoned on a desert island, we would none of us invent the Christian God or Shiva; we tend to believe that which others around us believe, which makes sense from a social or societal perspective. In other words, we adopt the religion into which we are born, because that's the easy thing to do. But then, if we say 'Hang on a minute...' it takes us off into the realms of the uncertain, which is a blessing or a curse, depending on how you look at it. Dogmatic religious 'certainty' is an artificial, humankind - created concept; you for example can be no more 'certain' that your god exists than can anyone, which is why it's called 'faith'. To believe in an adopted god relinquishes our responsibility for having to ask 'the big questions', 'God did it' in one sense lets us off the intellectual hook, and allows us to ignore other possibilities such as random and accidental evolution. On the other hand it keeps us on the hook of our beliefs, which prevents us from riding free on the currents of endless possibility. Religion frees us or imprisons us, empowers us or weakens us. It all, once again, depends how you look at it.
16 Jan 22
@indonesia-phil saidIf adopting the religion we were born into was fixed in reality, no one would at any point do anything else if it were hardwired into you to be that you grew up in. A free choice means one that is made even in the face of obstacles, denial of some things for something else. We live in a world where we are bombarded daily to buy this, try that, look at them, be like Mike. So we are making choices, some moral, some amoral, some for this reason and that.
As an aside, how much choice does your hypothetical God have, I wonder? Does he/she have a choice as to whether to be God? Your 'Selfish Gene' reference isn't quite right; in this hypothesis it isn't our 'minds' which control our actions, it's our DNA which 'wants' us to see to its' continuation by making us want to make babies, or at least go through the motions, as i ...[text shortened]... frees us or imprisons us, empowers us or weakens us. It all, once again, depends how you look at it.
I agree we would never invent the Christian God; others we would, not only that I believe we did. Everyone is a creature of faith; we all have worldviews we assume are correct, and with them, we look at everything, there is, and with that worldview, color all we see, in some cases define what is there right out of existence, to avoid it altogether. The issue is that reality when we are speaking about God is not something we can look inward and find, He is everywhere, so we can also miss the forest for the trees.
We can take an incredible thing and destroy ourselves with it; religion is no exception; if there isn't more to it than a set of doing and don'ts, it is no different than joining a social club. God makes everything different; the universe is no longer just the things we come up with for our purposes.
16 Jan 22
@fmf saidNo idea who Brian Eno is, robots don't have choices, software running may have choices in it, but it will only do what it is programmed to do. Gravity isn't a choice; we don't fall because we want to, so we are hindered in some cases, but it is only because of the constraints that we have freedom.
You think Brian Eno doesn't have "the freedom to make choices"?