A False Sense of Security

@petewxyz said
How do you fit sudden religious conversion into that scheme. Should you treat it with antipsychotics?

You've lost me here. I don't have any problem with people suddenly becoming believers or suddenly becoming non-believers. [I am not sure what I said that made you think that.] Why on Earth would I want to treat religious people with medicine?

@petewxyz said
In that context I am using it to mean somebody who truly believes there is nothing more to come after death. Somebody who truly believes that all there is now is to cope with their final moments (which I guess might include wanting the comfort of being true to how they wish to be remembered).

So, you mean "true" atheists, to your way of thinking, are those that end up as theists? I'm trying to understand you here.

@fmf said
How so?

Do you really think religious faith is something one can pretend to have and pretend that it will bring about a consequence that theists believe in?

I think there are many examples of people persuading themselves of things in order to feel better about choices and situations. Remember the 'how many fingers?' scene in 1984? Orwell depicts his character as actually seeing the number of fingers required to survive the brutality as opposed to choosing to lie. There is sound psychology in that writing and it comes as no surprise that Orwell had experienced being trapped as a victim of bullying.

Switch on a news channel and you will see in seconds an example of people persuading themselves of things in order to feel better about choices and situations!

@petewxyz said
Switch on a news channel and you will see in seconds an example of people persuading themselves of things in order to feel better about choices and situations!

Yes sure, but I have been talking about belief in supernatural things.

I believe it comes as process, no matter how truncated, and it ends in a realization.

One can make various decisions that contribute to gaining or losing faith in supernatural things, but one can't simply decide. Again, I am not talking about things on telly. I am only talking about supernatural things and about an inner spiritual "reality".

Losing my faith was not something I decided to do. Believers in Jesus cannot simply decide to not believe in him. I lost my faith and - while I could possibly realize one day that I have regained it - I cannot just decide to believe again.

Please note, I am taking about supernatural beings and supernatural phenomena like deities, angels, demons, regeneration, indwelling Holy Spirit, immortality etc.

@petewxyz said
The sign of true atheism should be accepting the comfort of religious conversion on the deathbed.

I don't have any use for the word "true", certainly not in the way you are using it. Broadly speaking, there are implicit atheists - like me - who lack belief in a God (or Gods); and there are explicit atheists - like Ghost of a Duke - who believe there is no God (or Gods). If someone believes in a God or Gods when they die, then they did not die as an atheist.

@fmf said
Yes sure, but I have been talking about belief in supernatural things.

I believe it comes as process, no matter how truncated, and it ends in a realization.

One can make various decisions that contribute to gaining or losing faith in supernatural things, but one can't simply decide. Again, I am not talking about things on telly. I am only talking about supernatural thing ...[text shortened]... tural phenomena like deities, angels, demons, regeneration, indwelling Holy Spirit, immortality etc.

I am not sure 'decides' captures what I am trying to say. The Orwell reference captures it better, it just happens that his character starts to see that which will get him through the situation as opposed to that which he would have believed he had known to be reality before the level of adversity he subsequently lives through.

@fmf said
So, what about "a false sense of security". Is it always a bad thing? Can it have benefits?

Atheism aside, what about - for example - the Abrahamic religions?

Presumaby Jews believe Christians and Muslims have a false sense of security [presuming they are living their lives in accordance with their religious obligations] due to their perceived-as-erroneous reverence for Jesus.

And the same goes for Muslims' perception of Jews and Christians, right?

What about Christians here: do you believe what you perceive as the false senses of security that both Jews and Muslims enjoy are any different qualitatively from what you perceive as the false sense of security that atheists enjoy?

Or does the rejection of Christ as "The Son of God" by all three make them much of a muchness?

@petewxyz said
I am not sure 'decides' captures what I am trying to say. The Orwell reference captures it better, it just happens that his character starts to see that which will get him through the situation as opposed to that which he would have believed he had known to be reality before the level of adversity he subsequently lives through.

I'm talking about supernatural matters. I am not talking about the results of torture as depicted in Orwell's "1984".

@fmf said
I don't have any use for the word "true", certainly not in the way you are using it. Broadly speaking, there are implicit atheists - like me - who lack belief in a God (or Gods); and there are explicit atheists - like Ghost of a Duke - who believe there is no God (or Gods). If someone believes in a God or Gods when they die, then they did not die as an atheist.

The problem here is where you end up when you deconstruct different peoples expressed belief in god. I believe there is a government, but I also know that if everybody who believe there is a government could all simultaneously stop believing then they would just be a bunch of people having a row in a nice old palace. The existence of government has a powerful influence on my life due to the sheer number of people who believe in it. In my life I have been surrounded by very few people who believe in god to a level of letting that have any influence over their life decisions. Apparently on RHP I am surrounded by a significant number of people who say something different although the more I see of them in the community the more that simply confuses me. If something exists for people that genuinely has an influence on their decisions in relationship with me does it also exist for me and do I have a relationship with it?

@petewxyz said
I am not sure 'decides' captures what I am trying to say.

You were talking, I think, about a "true" atheist being one who decides to become a theist shortly before dying, no?

@fmf said
Atheism aside, what about - for example - the Abrahamic religions?

Presumaby Jews believe Christians and Muslims have a false sense of security [presuming they are living their lives in accordance with their religious obligations] due to their perceived-as-erroneous reverence for Jesus.

And the same goes for Muslims' perception of Jews and Christians, right?

What abou ...[text shortened]...

Or does the rejection of Christ as "The Son of God" by all three make them much of a muchness?

I avoid thinking about people in terms of the groupings they wish to put themselves in and I try to just get to know individuals. You might reasonably think of me as a football fan due to my avatar but does that really help you much in trying to get where I am coming from?

@petewxyz said
In my life I have been surrounded by very few people who believe in god to a level of letting that have any influence over their life decisions.

Without meaning to rub you up the wrong way, I think this is clear from what you have been posting.

I personally don't think you have a good understanding of the nature of faith [others might disagree with me, of course] and there isn't anything much wrong with that.

What's more interesting to me, and you can set me straight if you want is how you don't seem to understand atheists and atheism either.

And there's nothing wrong with that either. Just saying, that's all.

@fmf said
You were talking, I think, about a "true" atheist being one who decides to become a theist shortly before dying, no?

Yes, but perhaps as our dialogue has developed I have started to wonder whether 'experiences' would serve my purpose better than 'decides'. Of course fatalism and what we decide unconsciously and to what extent we are passengers with an illusion of personal agency is a whole other complex discussion. To what extent are we experiencing our inevitable decisions and to what extent do we decide our decisions. How easily can we run against personality to the point of changing it through sustaining novel preferred positions?

@petewxyz said
I avoid thinking about people in terms of the groupings they wish to put themselves in and I try to just get to know individuals.

Christians, Muslims and Jews are groups of people based on their religions. This does not negate the fact that they are individuals too. In the post of mine you are replying to, I am talking about religions and their followers. If you like to avoid thinking about people in terms of the groupings they wish to put themselves in, I am not sure why you are replying to my post about religious groupings and their doctrines.

@fmf said
Without meaning to rub you up the wrong way, I think this is clear from what you have been posting.

I personally don't think you have a good understanding of the nature of faith [others might disagree with me, of course] and there isn't anything much wrong with that.

What's more interesting to me, and you can set me straight if you want is how you don't seem to understan ...[text shortened]... theists and atheism either.

And there's nothing wrong with that either. Just saying, that's all.

Yes, I think this is true. I try and approach most things from a position of not understanding and not knowing. I think you learn more from others that way and I don't think this is a disingenuous stance as I think most people seem to mean different things despite using common terminology so it is better to try and meet people than to feel there is anything absolute and clear by the labels they might wear. Better to find out their meaning and what the term means to them.