A False Sense of Security

@petewxyz said
The sign of true atheism should be accepting the comfort of religious conversion on the deathbed.

So, in your view, someone who does not convert to theism on his deathbed is not a "true" atheist? You probably need to explain that again.

@petewxyz said
The paradox is that on their deathbed an atheist should logically allow themselves any delusion that offers comfort since if they believe that is truly the end what would be the point of depriving yourself of that comfort or maintaining your sanity? The sign of true atheism should be accepting the comfort of religious conversion on the deathbed.

This suggests that you think that a person who lacks belief in the existence of a supernatural being can somehow decide or choose to actually believe in one despite finding it ~ and perhaps having always found it ~ not credible.

To my way of thinking, psychologically speaking, this is not how our 'relationship' with supernatural notions works.

I think you can decide to expose yourself to literature about a deity, you can decide to listen to what believers in a deity say ~ after which you might realize that you find belief has grown in you ...

[indeed, this would be a belief that you could not easily just then "decide" that you do not hold... I don't think Christians, for example, can just decide not to believe in Jesus]

~ and I think you can decide to give a religion every chance to convert you, but I don't think can simply decide to believe in the existence of a supernatural being despite not finding it believable.

I believe what happens is a realization [gaining faith or losing it] and not a decision.

@divegeester said
Attention seeking.

You would know right.

@dj2becker said
You would know right.

Yes, I know.

@fmf said
Perhaps you are misunderstanding what the word "false" is referring to in the expression "a false sense of security"?

The sense of security is real, but the certainty that X (a bad thing) isn't going to happen ~ or that Y (a good thing) is going to happen ~ is unfounded or mistaken.

If we are talking about so-called "revealed" religions, the use of the word "false" in the ...[text shortened]... gures are not real. The solace that such beliefs afford those that hold them is, nevertheless, real.

Perhaps like many things in life the beauty is in the ambiguity.

@divegeester said
Yes, I know.

With all the experience you have as an attention seeker.

@fmf said
So, in your view, someone who does not convert to theism on his deathbed is not a "true" atheist? You probably need to explain that again.

It is not a test of whether you are a true atheist that would be essential to carry the membership card or something I think all atheists should do!

I'm just saying that if you truly believe those are your final seconds you should allow whatever beliefs enter your head that give you comfort. If you feel it is important you are remembered as an atheist you should give advance warning that you will be believing whatever gives you comfort on your deathbed because as a true atheist why wouldn't you?

@petewxyz said
Perhaps like many things in life the beauty is in the ambiguity.

This sounds like an answer, perhaps, to the first line of my post only.

If it was intended as an answer to the rest of the content of the post - which you were quote & replying to - in its entirety - then, I think it creates a kind of ambiguity about whether you understood what I was saying to you, which is not really a thing of much beauty.

@petewxyz said
It is not a test of whether you are a true atheist that would be essential to carry the membership card or something I think all atheists should do!

Why, then, did you say such a clumsy thing ~ the thing about "true atheism"? Why did you suggest that "true atheism" would be indicated by converting to a religion before dying?

@fmf said
This suggests that you think that a person who lacks belief in the existence of a supernatural being can somehow decide or choose to actually believe in one despite finding it ~ and perhaps having always found it ~ not credible.

People become deluded in an instant (certainly seen that in practice) but personality changes slowly. According to most psychiatrists and psychologists there is a clear distinction, but I think that is overly certain. How do you fit sudden religious conversion into that scheme. Should you treat it with antipsychotics? Perhaps you have to argue that it is consistent with other enduring features of that person that they announce sudden and dramatic changes in worldview.

Credible? Completely, people do get sudden onset of completely new belief systems. Particularly in extreme circumstances, so the deathbed might reasonably be included.

@fmf said
Why, then, did you say such a clumsy thing ~ the thing about "true atheism"? Why did you suggest that "true atheism" would be indicated by converting to a religion before dying?

I am saying true atheism would be compatible with deathbed conversion. There is a subtle but clear distinction.

@petewxyz said
If you feel it is important you are remembered as an atheist you should give advance warning that you will be believing whatever gives you comfort on your deathbed because as a true atheist why wouldn't you?

You are talking here about somebody about to die wanting to be "remembered as an atheist" but they - what? - they "decide" to believe in a supernatural being and an afterlife... "because as a true atheist why wouldn't [they]"?

Can you give me your definition of "true atheist"?

@petewxyz said
I am saying true atheism would be compatible with deathbed conversion.

How so?

Do you really think religious faith is something one can pretend to have and pretend that it will bring about a consequence that theists believe in?

@petewxyz said
Completely, people do get sudden onset of completely new belief systems. Particularly in extreme circumstances, so the deathbed might reasonably be included.

I don't think people can "decide" to take on new belief systems that deal with supernatural matters. They "realize" [you used the word "get", fair enough ]that they believe these supernatural things, and - sure - it can happen quickly. Conversely, I don't think people can "decide" to stop believing in supernatural things. I think it is a process [perhaps a rapid one] but I believe the nature of it is a process of realization [that the belief is gone] and not a "decision" to stop believing.

@fmf said
You are talking here about somebody about to die wanting to be "remembered as an atheist" but they - what? - they "decide" to believe in a supernatural being and an afterlife because "because as a true atheist why wouldn't [they]"?

Can you give me your definition of "true atheist"?

In that context I am using it to mean somebody who truly believes there is nothing more to come after death. Somebody who truly believes that all there is now is to cope with their final moments (which I guess might include wanting the comfort of being true to how they wish to be remembered).

I don't have a broader definition of true atheist, it is just something I wrote to communicate about this specific question. More broadly I haven't got my head around what it is others truly believe in, to have a working definition.