Originally posted by streetfighterLooks fine except:
Hi ResigningSoon,
In your second line after 24.Bf4 I think we have a big shot with 24...Nb5! There are quite a few lines to calculate but I think we come out way ahead in all of them.
So... [b]21.Rb1 Rc8 22.Rb3 d5 23.exd5 Nd6 24.Bf4 Nb5! [b/]
25.Rxb5 Qxf4 26.Rd1 Bxb5; we win
or 25.cxb5 Qxc3+ 26.Rxc3 Bxd4; we win
or 25.Qd2 Nxd4 26.Bxc7 Nxb ...[text shortened]... ich should win also.
Let me know if I've missed something though-it's a tactical mess! : )
25.Bxc7 Nxc3 26.Ba5 to protect the long diagonal.
This isn't very obvious, I had to look a ridiculous amount of captures.
26...Bxd4 27.Bxc3 Rxc4 28.Bxd4 Rxd4 is even worse than
26...Ne2 27.c3 Nxd4 28.cxd4 Bxd4 27.Bc3 Rxc4 and white is untangled and up the exchange.
I had thought of Rb3 for white in earlier forums mostly because of your Nb5! shot; it still amazes me.
One benefit of the Ne8 line is the fact that white has to always be careful of Nb5! which I don't think is obvious. This may be how we snare PAWNRIOT.
Originally posted by ResigningSoonYep, missed that 25...Ne2 doesn't achieve anything after 26.c3.
Looks fine except:
25.Bxc7 Nxc3 26.Ba5 to protect the long diagonal.
This isn't very obvious, I had to look a ridiculous amount of captures.
26...Bxd4 27.Bxc3 Rxc4 28.Bxd4 Rxd4 is even worse than
26...Ne2 27.c3 Nxd4 28.cxd4 Bxd4 27.Bc3 Rxc4 and white is untangled and up the exchange.
I had thought of Rb3 for white in earlier forums mostly be ...[text shortened]... always be careful of Nb5! which I don't think is obvious. This may be how we snare PAWNRIOT.
Ok, so maybe we can play 24...Qc5 instead of 24...Nb5 !?
Why I prefer 24...Ba4 right away(as opposed to 24...Qc5):
20...Ne8 21.Rb1 Rc8 22.Rb3 d5 23.exd5 Nd6 24.Bf4 Ba4
25.Rb4 Qc5 26.Bxd6 exd6 27.Rd1 Bxc2! (I found 25.Rb4 Nb5! just now(edit #3).)
25.Rb2 Qc5 26.Bxd6 exd6 27.Rd1 Qxc4
25.Rb1 Qxc4 immediately
25.Bxd6 Qxd6 26.Rb4 Bxd4
26.Rb2 Qc5 27.Rd1 Qxc4 followed by Bxc2
26.Rb1 Bxc2!
Other moves and we win the exchange back with Bxb3.
25. Kb1(?trying to avoid the ugly pin) ...Bxb3 26.cxb3
Now if:
20...Ne8 21.Rb1 Rc8 22.Rb3 d5 23.exd5 Nd6 24.Bf4 Qc5
25.Bxd6 exd6 26.Rd1 Ba4 (almost transposing) 27.Kb1(?moving the rook leads to lines very similar to above) Bxb3 28.cxb3
So both lines we can probably win the exchange back or get an even better position.
Now compare these three lines where white gives us the exchange back:
(a)20...Ne8 21.Rb1 Rc8 22.Rb3 d5 23.exd5 Nd6 24.Bf4 Ba4 25.Kb1 Bxb3 26.cxb3
(b)20...Ne8 21.Rb1 Rc8 22.Rb3 d5 23.exd5 Nd6 24.Bf4 Ba4 25.Bxd6 exd6 26.Kb1 Bxb3 27.cxb3
(c)20...Ne8 21.Rb1 Rc8 22.Rb3 d5 23.exd5 Nd6 24.Bf4 Qc5 26.Bxd6 exd6 27.Rd1 Ba4 28.Ba4 Kb1 29.Bxb3 cxb3
now (b) we can follow with 27...e6! this I think is a good reason for it being better than (c)
(a) has 26...Qb6 threatening c4 and d4. And white has what? 27.Bxd6 Bxd4!(Why mess up our pawns?) 28.c5! Qxd6 29.Qxd4 Rxc5 I think this is better than (c) as well. We're a pawn down but with the more active pieces. Probably drawn.
Edit: I'm still looking for lines for white to avoid giving back the exchange...they don't look too great so far though.
The main point to Ba4 first is that in some lines our queen can go somewhere else, but our bishop really belongs on a4 at this point.
Doubling his rooks takes too long. After 20. ...Nh7 21. Rb1 Rc8 22. Rb4 (seems better then Rb3) ...Nf8 23. Rb1 Ne6
What is white doing?
24. Rb7 fails to ...Qc5 25. Rxd7 Nxd4 and I think we have the better of it.
No, if we go the nh7 route White MUST do something about the pin. I think we are more likely to see a queen move and a c3 push.
20. ...Nh7 21. Qd3 Nf8 22. c3 Ne6 with unclear results but our Knight seems better on e6 in all lines. Nh7 is the way to go
Originally posted by KencorpMy analysis of 20...Nh7 21. Qd3 Nf8 22. c3 Ne6:
Doubling his rooks takes too long. After 20. ...Nh7 21. Rb1 Rc8 22. Rb4 (seems better then Rb3) ...Nf8 23. Rb1 Ne6
What is white doing?
24. Rb7 fails to ...Qc5 25. Rxd7 Nxd4 and I think we have the better of it.
No, if we go the nh7 route White MUST do something about the pin. I think we are more likely to see a queen move and a c3 push.
20. ...Nh7 ...[text shortened]... 3 Ne6 with unclear results but our Knight seems better on e6 in all lines. Nh7 is the way to go
I'm pretty sure we mentioned this in earlier forums.
20...Nh7 21.Qd3 allows Rb4 so we can take c4 with the rook instead of the queen. Or we can play Be6 and take with the bishop. So, we avoid a queen trade and make white's position more difficult: a reason why white should avoid this line.
On the other hand after 20...Nh7 21.Qd3 Rb4 22.c3 (I suppose this is what you were going for) white has fixed his diagonal problem and eliminates a lot of the tactics that makes the position so dangerous for him: a reason we should avoid this line.
At the same time I fully expect white to play 21.Rb1; it is the logical follow-up to Ka1.
I think white's best try is:
20...Nh7 21.Rb1 Rc8 22.Rb4 Nf8 23.Rb1 Ne6 24.Rb7 Qc5 25.Rd1 (not 25.Rxd7?) looks like it's holding for white. We can force an endgame with 25...Qxc4 26.Qxc4 Rxc4 27.Rxd7 Nxd4 28.Bxd4 Bxd4 29.Rxd4? Rxd4 drawn probably, or 29.c3! exchange down endgame with lots of pawns falling on either side. Maybe drawn, but we're on the difficult side.
At this point, I've spent hours looking over Nh7 and Ne8 lines, as was previously said, they both look OK. I still prefer the Ne8 lines though as there seem to be more ! shots in them(Streetfighter's aforementioned Nb5! has made it into my collection). I will also argue that Ne8, d5, Nd6 is in the spirit of our play(starting with 14...b5!? and 15...b4!?); I appreciate the aesthetics of it.
Of course, general reasons may not be reasons at all and we should continue with concrete analysis, but who will argue against the last sentence of the previous paragraph?
Originally posted by KencorpOk, I have to admit. I hate the look of 22.Qd3 because d5 immediately isn't working, but I found a line where we can use it.
22. Rb3? is the blunder. It is too slow and does not address the pin.
20. ...Ne8 21. Rb1 Rc8 22. Qd3 preparing c3 is better and more likely, then what?
lets see some broader analysis
20...Ne8 21.Rb1 Rc8 22.Qd3 Be6 23.f4 Bxc4 24.Qd2 e5 25.fxe5 d5! looks fun. Extremely unclear, but white has room for plenty of mistakes.
Edit: 25...dxe5 26.Nb5 isn't bad for us either because after Qc6 27.Nxa7 Ra8!
22.Rb3 is not worse than this.
Originally posted by ResigningSoonUnless of course, he reads these forums.... 😛
Looks fine except:
25.Bxc7 Nxc3 26.Ba5 to protect the long diagonal.
This isn't very obvious, I had to look a ridiculous amount of captures.
26...Bxd4 27.Bxc3 Rxc4 28.Bxd4 Rxd4 is even worse than
26...Ne2 27.c3 Nxd4 28.cxd4 Bxd4 27.Bc3 Rxc4 and white is untangled and up the exchange.
I had thought of Rb3 for white in earlier forums mostly be ...[text shortened]... always be careful of Nb5! which I don't think is obvious. This may be how we snare PAWNRIOT.
Merry Christmas everyone, happy holidays, and happy new year!
I'm gonna cast my two cents in here:
1) I think 20...Ne8 here is the way to. The 21...d5 and 22...Nd6 plan leaves Black's knight optimally placed. It's easier for White to deal with ...Nf8-e6 in my opinion. It's harder for him to deal with ...Nd6-b5/f5/c4!
2) In ResigningSoons' analysis, 24...Ba4! seems to me to definitely be better than 24...Qc5, which is the move I had in my notes from a while ago as being best. I confirm that 25. Bxd6 Qxd6! 26. Rd1 (there are other moves here I suppose) Bxb3 27. cxb3 e6! is probably better for Black, or at least equal.
3) No one has mentioned the surprising 22. Rb2! yet, which I think is the best move. The point is that now 22...d5 23. exd5 Nd6 24. c5! Nb5?? just loses to 25. Nxb5, since 25...Bxc3 isn't check anymore! Whoops! I have been going back and forth with a friend over ICC exchanging analysis in a very similar position without h4 and h5 inserted. Unfortunately the ideas I found for Black in that position aren't usable here, since the insertion of h4 and ...h5 makes a difference. I haven't found a good line here for Black, although maybe I just haven't looked hard enough! 😀
Originally posted by !~TONY~!This probably is white's best continuation now that you mention it.
I'm gonna cast my two cents in here:
1) I think 20...Ne8 here is the way to. The 21...d5 and 22...Nd6 plan leaves Black's knight optimally placed. It's easier for White to deal with ...Nf8-e6 in my opinion. It's harder for him to deal with ...Nd6-b5/f5/c4!
2) In ResigningSoons' analysis, 24...Ba4! seems to me to definitely be better than 24...Qc5, w found a good line here for Black, although maybe I just haven't looked hard enough! 😀
I've looked at 20...Ne8 21.Rb1 Rc8 22.Rb2 d5 23.exd5 Nd6 24.c5 Qxc5 25.Qxc5 Rxc5 26.Rc1 Kh7 or ...Rxd5 among other moves. So we have a pawn for the exchange, can we draw? I think as long as we have the bishops we can, white still has plenty of targets for us to hit (h4,f3,c2, and h2).
I can't find an improvement over 22...d5 in any case.
Originally posted by ResigningSoonRecently I've taken a look at 23...Qxc4 as a better option. It seems to me that if we're going to trade queens, this way keeps the initative a little bit more since he has to do something about the pinned d4-knight. Also, since we've already taken the c4 pawn, maybe c7 is a better square for the knight here. I don't know though, I'm uneasy about trading queens down a whole chess set. 😀
This probably is white's best continuation now that you mention it.
I've looked at 20...Ne8 21.Rb1 Rc8 22.Rb2 d5 23.exd5 Nd6 24.c5 Qxc5 25.Qxc5 Rxc5 26.Rc1 Kh7 or ...Rxd5 among other moves. So we have a pawn for the exchange, can we draw? I think as long as we have the bishops we can, white still has plenty of targets for us to hit (h4,f3,c3, and h2).
Originally posted by !~TONY~!23...Qxc4 24.Qxc4 Rxc4 25.Rd1 Nc7 does seem a bit better, not sure though.
Recently I've taken a look at 23...Qxc4 as a better option. It seems to me that if we're going to trade queens, this way keeps the initative a little bit more since he has to do something about the pinned d4-knight. Also, since we've already taken the c4 pawn, maybe c7 is a better square for the knight here. I don't know though, I'm uneasy about trading queens down a whole chess set. 😀
I like the lines that don't allow c3 for white.