PAWN RIOT VS The Forum Move 11

This is a continuation of Thread 102661
Hi everyone
I'm back !!!
First, I would like to thank tomtom for taking over the forum while I was away.
"Applause" 🙂

PAWN RIOT has just submitted 11.Bb3, leading to the following position:



It is now our move.

The usual plan is Ne5, intending Nc4. This would fork the queen and queen bishop. If black were allowed to play Nxe3, he would control the dark squares excellently. An attack would really be hard for white to pull off. Therefore, white usually answers the Ne5 and Nc4 plan with Bxc4. White stops black's idea but removes one of his king's best defenders. White will most likely answer 11. ... Ne5 with 12.h4, starting his own attack. The point of which is to open the h-file, exchange bishops on g7, place the queen on h6, and mate black.
Black will be going for the same sort of attack on the white king. Rxc3 ideas will also be in the making. Another defensive plan for black is to slip in Re8, later, to meet Bh6 with Bh8. Even a later Bh8 without Re8 has been tried (sacking the exchange). There are many many ideas in this variation. Earlier when I voted for the Dragon and the double edged positions it leads to, this was the exact variation that I had in mind. We are in the heat of battle now. 🙂 Let's look at this a little further. After 11. ... Ne5 12.h4, we will still have some choices. 12. ... Nc4 is the older continuation. 13.Bxc4 Rxc4 14.Nde2 (stopping Rxc3 and holding the queenside quite well) is one good plan for white. 12. ... Nc4 was in some theoretical difficulties the last time I looked at it. 12. ... h5 on the other hand seems like it may be better. Black takes a move to stop white's h5 push. h5 slows the kingside attack down considerably. Black's ideas of Nc4 and Rxc3 (later forcing bxc3) are still in the air. All this will likely follow 11. ... Ne5. I am not going to vote right away. Let's wait a day to vote and just discuss the various possibilities for a while. If anyone would like to discuss this variation or 11th move variations before the vote, this would be a good time.

Again, DON'T VOTE YET. Let's talk first. 🙂

Thanks

Originally posted by paulbuchmanfromfics
This is a continuation of Thread 102661
Hi everyone
I'm back !!!
First, I would like to thank tomtom for taking over the forum while I was away.
"Applause" 🙂

PAWN RIOT has just submitted 11.Bb3, leading to the following position:

[pgn] 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.Bc4 Bd ...[text shortened]... this would be a good time.

Again, DON'T VOTE YET. Let's talk first. 🙂

Thanks

Let's talk about voting. 😛

I meant everyone could suggest a move, and we could kind of dissect it before the vote. We could say if that move, then this move, etc. It would be sort of a group analysis before voting sort of thing. 🙂

Originally posted by paulbuchmanfromfics
I meant everyone could suggest a move, and we could kind of dissect it before the vote. We could say if that move, then this move, etc. It would be sort of a group analysis before voting sort of thing. 🙂

What about ...h5 right away. That way we do not have to commit to the plan of moving our knight to c4 via e5.

Is there a time limit now?

I thought we could just look at it a day and then vote. 🙂

Originally posted by tomtom232
What about ...h5 right away. That way we do not have to commit to the plan of moving our knight to c4 via e5.

12. ... h5 is played after 12. h4 to stop h5. It is a prevention move. 11. ... h5 would be less good, in my opinion. You don't want to dig around on the kingside and make targets, unnecessarily. White may switch gears completely and play for g4. You are giving him an extra target for operations, while gaining nothing in your own queenside attack. Generally, you should leave the castled position alone. I know that sounds funny considering 12. ... h5 was my suggestion. There it has a direct purpose though. Here it just seems to give white more options.

Thank you for suggesting a new idea.
These are just the first ideas that spring to my mind.
Other ideas to this or other variations are welcome.
This was my exact goal of analysis before voting.

Originally posted by paulbuchmanfromfics
12. ... h5 is played after 12. h4 to stop h5. It is a prevention move. 11. ... h5 would be less good, in my opinion. You don't want to dig around on the kingside and make targets, unnecessarily. White may switch gears completely and play for g4. You are giving him an extra target for operations, while gaining nothing in your own queenside at ...[text shortened]... eas to this or other variations are welcome.
This was my exact goal of analysis before voting.

Well, I am for 11..Ne5 but I am just throwing a move out there to see what people think. I think I have played 11...h5 before followed by ..Nh7. I won but I think that way was too passive and would have put me in a lot of trouble against a higher rated opponent.

would immediately playing ...a5 be too slow? is white's attack faster?

I also like Ne5 here. If we can trade off the knight for either bishop, it would be to our advantage. We want the c-file open for our rook and this is headed toward being a fairly open game, in which the 2 bishops can help. I don't love the placement of the knight on f6, but there's not much we can really do about it right now.

My instinct would be to try 11. ...Na5 here, but then what do I know? I've beaten PAWN RIOT only once... 😉

Originally posted by sh76
I also like Ne5 here. If we can trade off the knight for either bishop, it would be to our advantage. We want the c-file open for our rook and this is headed toward being a fairly open game, in which the 2 bishops can help. I don't love the placement of the knight on f6, but there's not much we can really do about it right now.

f6 is a superb place for the knight. It guards h5 and is prepared to initiate some psuedo sac tactics on e4 if white isn't careful.

f6 is almost always a good square for the knight to defend black's castled king.

also i have some games in my database showing lines of 11...Nxd4, 11...Na5, but by far the most popular is 11...Ne5.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
also i have some games in my database showing lines of 11...Nxd4, 11...Na5, but by far the most popular is 11...Ne5.

11...Na5 doesn't work as well as 9...Na5 so not even I, advocator for ...Na5, would play it here.

I like Ne5
It seems to me that black's worse piece is the bishop on d7. By moving the Knight to e5, you allow to support any pawn advance on the queen side. Also, it opens the c-file for black's rook. I am also considering d5 eventually, but I do not know this opening that well...