Greece very well may have been the first democracy ever; certainly the first country to coin the phrase, but now it has the (un)envienable position of being Europe's first capitocracy.
The capitocracy isn't a new phenomenen though, it's been around for decades; in one form or another.
Think of Chili as an example. When worker's rights started getting in the way of United Fruits' and the mining company's profits, the regime had to be toppled and a dictatorship installed.
The dictatorship was backed by the US and the banks and basically had the goal of super-imposing free market economics on the country.
Milton Friedman and other scholars (although, arguably, they could be called bastards) of the Chicago school of economics argued for these interventions, even going so far as to argue the use of violence to create a social shock and a blank economic slate to re-shape the economy as the markets see fit (it sounds like a sort of 007 story, but alas, it is true).
Europe, on the other hand, was always slightly different. Kensian, if you will.
But it ain't anymore.
Milton Friedman must be rolling around in his grave laughing. No longer is social shock & awe and military might neccesary. The markets, themselves, now dictate what countries have to do.
If you don't do what they want, the rent on your loans go up. Up over 7% and you're gone. Who's actually getting the rent or who's actually owned all of these gazzillions doesn't matter.
When Greece proposed a referendum... Hey, it's a big deal for a lot of people over there...
NO! No referendum! Are you mad? You do as Europe says and Europe says what the markets want them to say. No democracy. Are you crazy?
End of story. There's no voting. There's nobody responsible. The markets, like HAL in 2001: a space oddessy, now decide what we get.
So, the democratically elected government of Greece is toppled. No referendum. And a spokesman for the markets is installed to carry out the blank economic slate Friedman so lovingly promoted.
And in Italy... The democrazy government (as corrupt as a 23 euro bill, I'll give you that, but democratic all the same) is toppled... And another lackey is installed. To carry out the loving agenda of the markets.
Now, I understand what communists think of this capitocratic system. We're ready to pick up guns and start shooting.
But, I'm wondering what our capitalist; pro-democracy brothers think of it all.
Are they happy that their free market agenda is being shoved down our throats?
Or are they upset (however slightly) that the holy virtue that is democracy has been sold?
Originally posted by shavixmirPlease. Europe has simply had the idea that there is a free lunch. You get paid for not working. You get free whatever you want. Yeh, that works.
Greece very well may have been the first democracy ever; certainly the first country to coin the phrase, but now it has the (un)envienable position of being Europe's first capitocracy.
The capitocracy isn't a new phenomenen though, it's been around for decades; in one form or another.
Think of Chili as an example. When worker's rights started getting ...[text shortened]... upset (however slightly) that the holy virtue that is democracy has been sold?
And the idea of blaming Milton Friedman for anything wrong with Chile is preposterous. Chili has had a long checkered past, most of it not anything resembling free markets.
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Originally posted by shavixmirAs usual the best course of action is somewhere in the middle,
Greece very well may have been the first democracy ever; certainly the first country to coin the phrase, but now it has the (un)envienable position of being Europe's first capitocracy.
The capitocracy isn't a new phenomenen though, it's been around for decades; in one form or another.
Think of Chili as an example. When worker's rights started getting ...[text shortened]... upset (however slightly) that the holy virtue that is democracy has been sold?
Economics of capitalism moderated by a strong socialist safety net governed by democratic
governance with a well educated and informed populace guided by science and reason...
Actually achieving this however is rather hard.
Europe's biggest problem has always been democracy and accountability, or rather the lack thereof.
The UK is not in the Euro, but we are in the union and have 'Euro' elections.
However having looked into the issue quite hard (which few do) I can't for the life of me determine
what a vote for any particular Euro party actually means.
The way it 'works' is that you vote for the party (not individual EMP) of your choice for your area.
The party's available match up pretty much with the political parties of our own parliament.
Each area has a number of EMP's allocated proportionately to the population of that area.
The number of EMP's each party gets is proportional to the number of votes they receive.
These EMP's when they get to Europe become part of some bigger Europe wide party decided by
the preference of the local (national) party.
Nobody has any idea what these international parties stand for, and they are all coalitions of various
national parties.
In short, their is a total and utter disconnect from the act of voting and what you eventually vote for.
So I do the only thing that makes any sense, I vote UK independence party, the party for getting out
of the whole mess altogether.
Democracy isn't meant to be convenient, I don't care how much 'turmoil' it would cause, we need a
referendum on leaving the EU, and we need it now. They wont hold one because they know what the
result would be and they don't like it.
Which kind of proves the point that none of this is democratic.
Originally posted by shavixmirI'm not sure what you'd like Greece to do. As long as they submit austerity measures to referendum, of course they'll fall. Why would people vote to give up all their free stuff.
Greece very well may have been the first democracy ever; certainly the first country to coin the phrase, but now it has the (un)envienable position of being Europe's first capitocracy.
The capitocracy isn't a new phenomenen though, it's been around for decades; in one form or another.
Think of Chili as an example. When worker's rights started getting ...[text shortened]... upset (however slightly) that the holy virtue that is democracy has been sold?
But Greece has to face the stark reality that it is insolvent and not all the populist rhetoric in the world is going to change that. If they don't cut spending then either they're going to get a big German bailout or their economy is simply going to collapse, driving them into the position of a developing country, at best. Some politician has to deal with that reality whether the people want to or not.
Submitting budgets for referendum is akin to having my kids vote on whether I can afford to give them a raise in their allowance. The common people don't have the training to write budgets and that's why they elect politicians to do it for them.
As for Keynes vs. Friedman, IMO, you're missing the point on that one. First, as I demonstrated on another thread a few weeks ago, it's not even clear that Friedman and Keynes are inconsistent with one another. Second, Keynesian spending presupposes the ability of the government to spend. Keynes never said that government should spend itself into complete insolvency. He said government should increase spending to alleviate recessions and decrease spending during economic booms (the latter part has been curiously absent from liberal economic policies in recent decades).
Greece can't afford Keynes right now. It's budget deficit is 15% of its GDP and its debt is closing in on 150% of GDP and, unlike the stooges in Washington, the stooges in Athens cannot print Euros. Ergo, the stooges in Athens have finally been smacked upside the head with the realization that it has to curb spending. That a majority of the ignorant populace may or may not have been smacked upside the head with the same realization is immaterial.
I don't think it is "undemocratic" per se, after all the elected members of parliament still have to approve of the new "market-friendly" governments, and if they don't get support from a majority in parliament they're done for. They have that support now, but if the markets calm down the MPs could pull the plug easily.
Originally posted by sh76OK, but what do you (or others) think would have been better for average Joe Greeks in the long run, accepting austerity or opting out and getting bounced out of the euro?
I'm not sure what you'd like Greece to do. As long as they submit austerity measures to referendum, of course they'll fall. Why would people vote to give up all their free stuff.
But Greece has to face the stark reality that it is insolvent and not all the populist rhetoric in the world is going to change that. If they don't cut spending then either they're ...[text shortened]... or may not have been smacked upside the head with the same realization is immaterial.
Originally posted by SleepyguyDoes getting bounced out of the euro even solve their problems? Are creditors going to suddenly start accepting all the drachmas the Greeks can print?
OK, but what do you (or others) think would have been better for average Joe Greeks in the long run, accepting austerity or opting out and getting bounced out of the euro?
We can get away with that nonsense because we hold world economic hegemony (and even we don't have as much debt as a percentage of GDP as the Greeks do), but going back to printing their own currency is not a magic bullet for the Greeks.
Originally posted by sh76Well no it's not a magic bullet, but it's not really clear is it? If the Greeks simply defaulted on their debt and went back to their own currency, banks may indeed lend them money. That's what banks do after all, and hey, they wouldn't have any other debt so no problem!
Does getting bounced out of the euro even solve their problems? Are creditors going to suddenly start accepting all the drachmas the Greeks can print?
We can get away with that nonsense because we hold world economic hegemony (and even we don't have as much debt as a percentage of GDP as the Greeks do), but going back to printing their own currency is not a magic bullet for the Greeks.
The position of not letting the people vote on an issue because politicians know the people won't vote the way they want them to just doesn't sit right with me.
Originally posted by sh76The effects of a default are often overstated. Look at the recent Argentinan crisis for a comparison.
Does getting bounced out of the euro even solve their problems? Are creditors going to suddenly start accepting all the drachmas the Greeks can print?
We can get away with that nonsense because we hold world economic hegemony (and even we don't have as much debt as a percentage of GDP as the Greeks do), but going back to printing their own currency is not a magic bullet for the Greeks.
Originally posted by shavixmirChile has done extremely well under Friedmanomics. Greece should have been so lucky.
Greece very well may have been the first democracy ever; certainly the first country to coin the phrase, but now it has the (un)envienable position of being Europe's first capitocracy.
The capitocracy isn't a new phenomenen though, it's been around for decades; in one form or another.
Think of Chili as an example. When worker's rights started getting ...[text shortened]... upset (however slightly) that the holy virtue that is democracy has been sold?
So the communist philosophy is to borrow a whole lot of money, spend everything, and then pick up rifles and start shooting when somebody talks about repayment?
Er...didn't we fight a cold war against you people and didn't you collapse in disarray when your system proved to be unworkable?
Originally posted by spruce112358Chile has less than half of Greece's GDP per capita. Chile's extreme income inequality (higher than for example the US) is holding it back significantly. I don't see how Chile is doing "extremely well" especially if you consider that both countries became (quasi) democratic at around the same time.
Chile has done extremely well under Friedmanomics. Greece should have been so lucky.
So the communist philosophy is to borrow a whole lot of money, spend everything, and then pick up rifles and start shooting when somebody talks about repayment?
Er...didn't we fight a cold war against you people and didn't you collapse in disarray when your system proved to be unworkable?
Originally posted by EladarIs that you, Dave Ramsay?
If you don't want to have banks telling you what to do, then don't borrow money from banks. The borrower is the lender's slave. I suppose that's only true if the borrower wants to borrow more money in the future.
Balance your budget, then do what you want.
Originally posted by normbenignYou have never been in Europe, have you?
Please. Europe has simply had the idea that there is a free lunch. You get paid for not working. You get free whatever you want. Yeh, that works.
Anyhoo... are you suggesting the American way is better? You do know that their debt-per-person is higher than in Greece, don't you?