Government shutdown

@spruce112358 said
To me, public schools are government run. Parents deciding to spend an education voucher on a catholic school is "subsidized private." One step at a time.

So - market failure in education! Tut, tut. Free market forces increase quality of services everywhere - except in education, where greedy parents cleverly fool world-class universities into accepting their idiot of ...[text shortened]... h Ph.D.'s work at Starbucks serving coffee.

It takes a BIG government to fail that spectacularly.

In a free market, people respond to financial incentives. But what are those incentives in the case of education? From the perspective of society, we would like our educational institutes to deliver high-quality education. Who stands to gain financially from this on the short term, at an individual level? It's not as simple as "let the market figure it out." That people will automatically go to the best schools sounds intuitive, but this presumes that a) people can accurately gauge the quality of a school and b) that people decide based only on said quality. Both assumptions are tenuous, as also the Swedish example (of high schools, not universities, which are top-tier in Sweden) shows.

Having a look at some of the best education systems the world currently has to offer (in Europe, Finland for example), one can hardly argue that they are characterized by a lack of government interference. Instead, they share some features:
- highly trained, well-paid teachers;
- well-funded schools;
- a culture that values educational achievement.
Clearly the problems of the U.S. education system go a bit deeper than "government bad."

The apocryphal "kid with PhD working at Starbucks" exists primarily in the minds of Americans who think that people spend their days in "liberal" colleges worrying about if there are 42 or 43 genders. Sure, if you get some barely relevant undergraduate degree from a third-rate college you might not find a suitable job immediately, but among people with actual PhD's the unemployment rate is almost zero and typically they have plenty of good options in the labour market. By the way, graduate schools in the U.S. often waive the tuition fee for doctoral students (depending on the field and university in question).

@kazetnagorra said
In a free market, people respond to financial incentives. But what are those incentives in the case of education? From the perspective of society, we would like our educational institutes to deliver high-quality education. Who stands to gain financially from this on the short term, at an individual level? It's not as simple as "let the market figure it out." That people ...[text shortened]... ten waive the tuition fee for doctoral students (depending on the field and university in question).

Yeah, not to pile on the bandwagon, KN, but I also know overqualified PhD's in the US.

I'm not saying the Finnish system doesn't work in Finland - I'm sure it does. I speculate that it would not work here. Throwing money at government-run schools has been tried. It produced a plethora of regulations and administrators. But results have been largely stagnant or worsening for the last 20 years - I can show you graphs state-by-state. I studied this issue a lot for my recent political campaign.

We have kids whose parents went to the same failing inner-city schools that they go to - with the same results. Many years later, my own high school ended up becoming a failing school, with violence, delinquency, etc.

Americans have our own ways of solving problems - choice and competition seems to work well for us. That's why we want to try it.

@spruce112358 said
Yeah, not to pile on the bandwagon, KN, but I also know overqualified PhD's in the US.

I'm not saying the Finnish system doesn't work in Finland - I'm sure it does. I speculate that it would not work here. Throwing money at government-run schools has been tried. It produced a plethora of regulations and administrators. But results have been largely stagnant or worseni ...[text shortened]... f solving problems - choice and competition seems to work well for us. That's why we want to try it.

But the Finnish system isn't "throwing money at schools." It relies on spending it efficiently.

There aren't any "failing inner-city schools" (of course quality varies somewhat, but almost everyone gets a good education) in Finland, or Singapore for example. Think about why this might be the case with a bit more depth than shrugging and saying "well, America is different."

Claiming that failed methods tried elsewhere should work in the U.S. because Americans are just that special is a very peculiar and rather naïve sort of American exceptionalism.

@spruce112358 said
Right. And cars, too. Without government, there would be no cars - no one would have them, including poor people. No one would produce any, and no one would buy them.

Fortunately, we have government to provide us with ... er ... um ...

yes, by demanding education, healthcare and roads from the government it will lead to it having to provide everyone with a car.

Some things are more than luxuries. Some things are integral to having a civilized country. A country needs an army to defend itself and it needs educated, healthy citizens to run it. If you want to be the type of country where education is not affordable but to the rich and getting sick means you go bankrupt or die, go ahead.

Tell me, do you have an army? Do you have a fire department? Did it lead to communism yet? No. So, buddy, you're kind of an idiot.

@spruce112358 said
Yeah, not to pile on the bandwagon, KN, but I also know overqualified PhD's in the US.

I'm not saying the Finnish system doesn't work in Finland - I'm sure it does. I speculate that it would not work here. Throwing money at government-run schools has been tried. It produced a plethora of regulations and administrators. But results have been largely stagnant or worseni ...[text shortened]... f solving problems - choice and competition seems to work well for us. That's why we want to try it.

"Throwing money at government-run schools has been tried"
The US hasn't been throwing money at public schools in years.

"But results have been largely stagnant or worsening for the last 20 years"
so have their budgets. of bloody course they perform bad when teachers have to buy school supplies from their own pocket

"Americans have our own ways of solving problems - choice and competition seems to work well for us."
No it doesn't. What kind of a choice is to choose between being crippling debt for decades or no college at all? What do i care if i have to choose between Harvard and Yale and can't afford either of them. It's like having to choose between a Lamborghini and a Ferrari.

I got out of a public college with 0 debt. I got into the workforce with 0 debt and started building my work experience. The financial crisis of 2008 caught me with 0 debt and some money saved up so i could comfortably find a new job. I put a down payment on an apartment when i could comfortably afford the mortgage and i was finally in debt, but with an apartment.

In Romanian universities there are spots that are subsidized by the government and the top students get them. There are additional spots for which you pay tuition fee and at the end of every year your ranking dictates if you get a subsidized spot or lose one if you are too low.

What do you know, we have choice (real choice) and competition too. I can choose which medical school (for example) i want to go to and i compete with other students and later in the workforce.

@kazetnagorra said
But the Finnish system isn't "throwing money at schools." It relies on spending it efficiently.

There aren't any "failing inner-city schools" (of course quality varies somewhat, but almost everyone gets a good education) in Finland, or Singapore for example. Think about why this might be the case with a bit more depth than shrugging and saying "well, America is differ ...[text shortened]... Americans are just that special is a very peculiar and rather naïve sort of American exceptionalism.

I'm not sure what the secret sauce is in Finland that makes it work. Self-discipline? Innate respect for rules? Sense of duty to society? American doesn't have a lot of that. We are spirited competitors always trying to bend the rules, make a buck, and screw the other guy. We really do need the iron, competitive discipline of impersonal market forces to MAKE us behave. It's not exceptionalism because its not particularly good or bad - its just the way we are.

@zahlanzi said
"Throwing money at government-run schools has been tried"
The US hasn't been throwing money at public schools in years.

"But results have been largely stagnant or worsening for the last 20 years"
so have their budgets. of bloody course they perform bad when teachers have to buy school supplies from their own pocket

"Americans have our own ways of solving problems - ...[text shortened]... l school (for example) i want to go to and i compete with other students and later in the workforce.

We spend much more on education now than we ever have. Almost all of the increases went to administrative staffs which absolutely ballooned. For universities, it went to fund endowments. Universities are still building like crazy - they have been for 50 years. As tuition increased, the government shoveled out more loans - so that fueled further increases in tuition.

The cost of education in the US has accelerated at a much higher rate than inflation for at least the last 3 decades.

These are just facts.

Romania? I once gave a lecture at the opera house in Iasi. Nice.

@zahlanzi said
yes, by demanding education, healthcare and roads from the government it will lead to it having to provide everyone with a car.

Some things are more than luxuries. Some things are integral to having a civilized country. A country needs an army to defend itself and it needs educated, healthy citizens to run it. If you want to be the type of country where education is not ...[text shortened]... Do you have a fire department? Did it lead to communism yet? No. So, buddy, you're kind of an idiot.

Just saying we have cars and food in abundance without government help. We could so the same with education. And the cost would go down.

@spruce112358 said
I'm not sure what the secret sauce is in Finland that makes it work. Self-discipline? Innate respect for rules? Sense of duty to society? American doesn't have a lot of that. We are spirited competitors always trying to bend the rules, make a buck, and screw the other guy. We really do need the iron, competitive discipline of impersonal market forces to MAKE us behave. It's not exceptionalism because its not particularly good or bad - its just the way we are.

You shouldn't design policy based on stereotypes and wishful thinking, but based on what is proven effective policy judging by empirical evidence. Really, you should try a bit harder to justify why measures that have been shown to be effective elsewhere would not work in the U.S. than a mere "that's jus' the way it is."

@spruce112358 said
Just saying we have cars and food in abundance without government help. We could so the same with education. And the cost would go down.

...but you don't have cars and food in abundance "without government help." What does that even mean?

@spruce112358 said
I'm not sure what the secret sauce is in Finland that makes it work. Self-discipline? Innate respect for rules? Sense of duty to society? American doesn't have a lot of that. We are spirited competitors always trying to bend the rules, make a buck, and screw the other guy. We really do need the iron, competitive discipline of impersonal market forces to MAKE us behave. It's not exceptionalism because its not particularly good or bad - its just the way we are.

Unfortunately, "greed is good" is the way America is these days.

@spruce112358 said
We spend much more on education now than we ever have. Almost all of the increases went to administrative staffs which absolutely ballooned. For universities, it went to fund endowments. Universities are still building like crazy - they have been for 50 years. As tuition increased, the government shoveled out more loans - so that fueled further increases in tuition.

T ...[text shortened]... ecades.

These are just facts.

Romania? I once gave a lecture at the opera house in Iasi. Nice.

"We spend much more on education now than we ever have."
I know you do.

"The cost of education in the US has accelerated at a much higher rate than inflation for at least the last 3 decades."
i know it has.

i know these facts . what is your solution? stop all government loans and expect universities to magically lower tuition costs? Do you think Harvard will lower its tuition fee so it is affordable to someone whose parents make minimum wage when it can make the same money setting it high enough that only parents making 120k a year can afford?

How long until you realize education cannot function in a free market? If we treat Harvard as a company, it has a limited amount of product to sell. It doesn't care if poor people can afford it since it can find enough rich people that do afford it.

You, however, as a citizen, should care. You should care that a talented and intelligent young person doesn't get to be an engineer or a doctor and instead wastes their potential on an assembly line job or worse, in jail.

@spruce112358 said
Just saying we have cars and food in abundance without government help. We could so the same with education. And the cost would go down.

"Just saying we have cars and food in abundance without government help."
Some don't have food in abundance actually, there are people starving in the US. Despite that, the food companies don't see the need to lower the food cost so everyone can afford it. Why is that? Could it be that they make enough profit selling to people who can afford it? What happens to the people that can't afford it? Could it be that the government steps in and helps?

And no, the fact that you're producing a ton of food that is wasted doesn't help at all. The american going hungry doesn't give a crap that there is so much variety of food in the supermarket if he can only afford canned beans (or not even that).
It's the same with education. Your analogy actually supports my point, if you think about it (which all people chanting "free market will regulate itself and solve everything" never do)

"And the cost would go down."
by magic?

@spruce112358 said
I'm not sure what the secret sauce is in Finland that makes it work. Self-discipline? Innate respect for rules? Sense of duty to society? American doesn't have a lot of that. We are spirited competitors always trying to bend the rules, make a buck, and screw the other guy. We really do need the iron, competitive discipline of impersonal market forces to MAKE us behave. It's not exceptionalism because its not particularly good or bad - its just the way we are.

I have trouble arguing over this post since it's filled to the brim with worthless fortune cookie platitudes.

Iron competitive discipline of impersonal market forces? Wtf are you talking about? 99% of americans don't engage in the market, they only suffer the results. They go to work, they get a paycheck. That's it. All people do the same all over the world, the difference is that the norwegian or the dane expects education, healthcare, social security, etc to be covered already. They expect the people they elect to not pass laws benefiting only the 1%.

As for the 1%, what discipline? how many of the bank executives responsible for the 2008 crash went to jail, again? How many got fired? How many banks went bankrupt? How many skip on paying their taxes through loopholes and buying off politicians?

"its just the way we are."
Another statement you just recite from memory without thinking it through or educating yourself. The majority of americans want medicare for all. The majority of americans want affordable education. The majority of americans want the rich to pay their fair share of taxes. Ask a reasonable republican who is too poor to send his kids to college if he would refuse a government sponsored free college because "that's how communism starts"