@wildgrass said
Maybe, but at that time he hadn't seen the practical outcomes of socialist governments. It's um, not a great track record of success, to put it lightly.

That's not the fault of the government. All governments eventually fall because of evil men. You can take greed out of government through laws, but you cannot take the greed out of every man. Some will find ways around the law.

@wajoma said
My point is that socialist/welfare political system is the opposite of a caring sharing society, the more the state takes on the role of 'helping each other' the less people are inclined to the virtue of benevolence, not only are they less inclined but their ability to be benevolent is inhibited.

That's like saying we shouldn't have laws because it keeps people from doing the right thing on their own. Why don't we ban laws against murder, rape and assault so people can be nice on their own?

This is a monumentally stupid argument.

@js357 said
Who’s on your list of socialist governments?

China, Cuba, East Germany, USSR, North Korea, Venezuela, to name a few.

Nordic countries don't count. They are capitalist at heart (e.g. charter schools, no minimum wage) , and part of the EU so they're not even really sovereign nations.

@wildgrass said
China, Cuba, East Germany, USSR, North Korea, Venezuela, to name a few.

Nordic countries don't count. They are capitalist at heart (e.g. charter schools, no minimum wage) , and part of the EU so they're not even really sovereign nations.

Dictatorships, plutocratic oligarchies and one-party states can hardly be considered to be pure or even reasonable examples of socialism. Those who claim to be, are actually stuck in that one-party Marxist planned economy he theorized was necessary to bring about Communism. China can’t be called a failed socialist state, with all that capital on the high seas. Who owns it? Who benefits from it?

@js357 said
Dictatorships, plutocratic oligarchies and one-party states can hardly be considered to be pure or even reasonable examples of socialism.

Obviously, but not for lack of effort. It just doesn't work.

@wildgrass said
Obviously, but not for lack of effort. It just doesn't work.

What does work, and how is this objectively assessed?

@wildgrass said
China, Cuba, East Germany, USSR, North Korea, Venezuela, to name a few.

Nordic countries don't count. They are capitalist at heart (e.g. charter schools, no minimum wage) , and part of the EU so they're not even really sovereign nations.

May I suggest that anyone who wants to engage in a debate on anything to do with Socialism go to diffen.com and read up on Socialism vs Communism.
It's a Coles Notes version. But it can't hurt.

@mghrn55 said
May I suggest that anyone who wants to engage in a debate on anything to do with Socialism go to diffen.com and read up on Socialism vs Communism.
It's a Coles Notes version. But it can't hurt.

this basically just says that communism is extreme socialism, with historical detail. I'm not sure I understand why you referred me here?

@js357 said
What does work, and how is this objectively assessed?

I don't know.