1 edit
Originally posted by scacchipazzoI agree. And Wagner would have thought the staging vital too, his ideal being the Gesamtkunstwerk. That's why I declined an invitation to see a concert performance of The Ring at the Proms this summer.
I am going to agree with pianoman1. Wagner indeed all about the words melded with the music into a coherent whole unlike any composer's before or since.
Originally posted by scacchipazzoWhat in your opinion makes Don Giovanni the superior opera? Surely those flaws, the disconnection of the work due to its sequence of showy (though, of course, sublime) set piece arias, bring it below the level of Cosi and Figaro, which meld music and narrative into a perfect aesthetic union! Don Giovanni is a glorious work and its climax among the greatest scenes in all opera; but I can't regard it as being quite on an aesthetic level overall with those two great bittersweet comedies.
No doubt Cosi Fan Tutte is a remarkable work of art, but despite all flaws Don Giovanni is a far superior opera. It seems disjointed because Mozart had to insert arias not fitting the flow of music, despite their beauty, to mollify demanding divas(os) who thought he could and should do better by them. That's why we have the beautiful but odd Dalla Sua P ...[text shortened]... That said, however, no one argues Cosi is also a great work and Da Ponte a genius librettist.
Originally posted by TeinosukeIndeed the ideal of Gesamkunstwerk is realized in Wagner like with no other composer. I overlooked the staging aspect of it, but is indeed your point that rounds off the incredible aesthetic whole of Wagner's work.
I agree. And Wagner would have thought the staging vital too, his ideal being the Gesamtkunstwerk. That's why I declined an invitation to see a concert performance of The Ring at the Proms this summer.
Originally posted by TeinosukeMusically it reaches greater heights, reaches greater dramatic coherence in spite of its disjointedness and Wagner said so. However, Wagner also notes the flaws you point out. Let's just say the greats were more inspired by Don Giovanni than by Cosi and Figaro, great as these works were.
What in your opinion makes Don Giovanni the superior opera? Surely those flaws, the disconnection of the work due to its sequence of showy (though, of course, sublime) set piece arias, bring it below the level of Cosi and Figaro, which meld music and narrative into a perfect aesthetic union! Don Giovanni is a glorious work and its climax among the greatest ...[text shortened]... gard it as being quite on an aesthetic level overall with those two great bittersweet comedies.
Originally posted by scacchipazzoYes, and my tympanum oscillates in pure ecstasy despite the disjointness.
Musically it reaches greater heights, reaches greater dramatic coherence in spite of its disjointedness and Wagner said so. However, Wagner also notes the flaws you point out. Let's just say the greats were more inspired by Don Giovanni than by Cosi and Figaro, great as these works were.
Originally posted by joe beyserAptly put and descriptive. Compare to the quivering grand mal seizures your tympani would suffer by the assault of Wozzeck, or Lulu or Dallapiccola's Canti di prigionia. You would then have to soothe them with Mozart's Ave Verum Corpus.
Yes, and my tympanum oscillates in pure ecstasy despite the disjointness.
Originally posted by scacchipazzoI wonder if that's because Don Giovanni is more obviously philosophical? The moral issues surrounding the climax in particular, the Don's refusal to repent, are ones that could provoke endless debate. Yet, I don't think that in itself makes the work superior to the moral clarity of the other two works.
Musically it reaches greater heights, reaches greater dramatic coherence in spite of its disjointedness and Wagner said so. However, Wagner also notes the flaws you point out. Let's just say the greats were more inspired by Don Giovanni than by Cosi and Figaro, great as these works were.
Seeing Figaro again this evening - the first at Covent Garden's new season. Hurrah!
Originally posted by TeinosukeBeethoven also considered Don Giovanni superior, but hated its gross immorality as he also did in Cosi and Figaro, thus pronouncing Die Zauberflote Mozart's greatest opera. Don Giovanni is indeed more dramatic than Cosi or Figaro.
I wonder if that's because Don Giovanni is more obviously philosophical? The moral issues surrounding the climax in particular, the Don's refusal to repent, are ones that could provoke endless debate. Yet, I don't think that in itself makes the work superior to the moral clarity of the other two works.
Seeing Figaro again this evening - the first at Covent Garden's new season. Hurrah!
Originally posted by scacchipazzoCurious that Beethoven should think immoral a work in which a man's sins are met with immediate divine punishment! What could be more moral than the depiction of a crime justly punished?
Beethoven also considered Don Giovanni superior, but hated its gross immorality as he also did in Cosi and Figaro, thus pronouncing Die Zauberflote Mozart's greatest opera. Don Giovanni is indeed more dramatic than Cosi or Figaro.
Originally posted by TeinosukeI agree Beethoven's take was quite enigmatic, but largely explainable on the basis of having uttered such statements whilst in the middle of his famous custody dispute for his nephew Karl with his sister-in-law whom Beethoven considered a harlot. Perhaps because punishment comes to a male rather than a female. Beethoven was actually quite repelled by "Abduction from the Seraglio" as well. Beethoven's own ideal female is embodied in his only opera, Fidelio. Beethoven was moralistic, a misanthrope, intractable and unbending. No one could persuade him Don Giovanni was superior to Magic Flute. Alexander Thayer, Beethoven's American biographer confirms Beethoven's take on Mozart's operas.
Curious that Beethoven should think immoral a work in which a man's sins are met with immediate divine punishment! What could be more moral than the depiction of a crime justly punished?