17 Jan 13
Originally posted by FMFI haven't claimed anything, its you who have stated that it has changed, although as yet, despite being asked countless times, you seem devoid and empty a desert region of tundra. Now if you can provide some type of evidence to substantiate your claims, then please do so, until you do, i will waste no more time with you, sorry, time is rather of the essence.
It is no longer permitted. Unless you are claiming it is.
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17 Jan 13
1 edit
Originally posted by FMF
So, although it was once permitted, it is no longer permitted, right? This is "change".
So, although it was once permitted, it is no longer permitted, right? This is "change".
I don't see this as the law of Moses changing.
I don't see this as God changing His mind about something in the way you may imply.
The law of Moses still said the same things.
The New Testament still said the same things.
17 Jan 13
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI have stated that it has changed because slavery was once permitted and it no longer is. It's an example the "change" that I have been discussing.
I haven't claimed anything, its you who have stated that it has changed, although as yet, despite being asked countless times, you seem devoid and empty a desert region of tundra. Now if you can provide some type of evidence to substantiate your claims, then please do so, until you do, i will waste no more time with you, sorry, time is rather of the essence.
17 Jan 13
Originally posted by sonshipThe "instructions" with regard to slavery have changed, clearly. Unless you are claiming that slavery - as portrayed in the OT - is still permitted.So, although it was once permitted, it is no longer permitted, right? This is "change".
I don't see this as the law of Moses changing.
I don't see this as God changing His mind about something in the way you may imply.
The law of Moses still said the same things.
The New Testament still said the same things.
17 Jan 13
Originally posted by robbie carrobieAre you saying that slavery is still permitted? I have never heard of any Christians condemning the fact that it is illegal almost everywhere in the world. If you believe it is still permitted, why not just say so.
where is it stated that its no longer permitted?
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17 Jan 13
The New Testament still teaches a man what he should do IF he becomes a Christian and FINDS HIMSELF in the situation of slavery.
Men's consciences can become more sensative. And in that regard society can change and has.
The New Testament STILL contains some direction accounting for the presence or the absence of the institution of slavery.
The New Testament still instructs the believer to have a outlook and attitude should he find himself becoming a Christian while the situation of slavery.
17 Jan 13
Originally posted by sonshipAre you saying that slavery is still permitted?
The New Testament still teaches a man what he should do IF he becomes a Christian and FINDS HIMSELF in the situation of slavery.
Men's consciences can become more sensative. And in that regard society can change and has.
The New Testament STILL contains some direction accounting for the presence or the absence of the institution of slavery.
The ...[text shortened]... utlook and attitude should he find himself becoming a Christian while the situation of slavery.
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17 Jan 13
3 edits
Originally posted by FMF
The "instructions" with regard to slavery have changed, clearly. Unless you are claiming that slavery - as portrayed in the OT - is still permitted.
The "instructions" with regard to slavery have changed, clearly. Unless you are claiming that slavery - as portrayed in the OT - is still permitted.
In the last 2,000 years what the Bible said about the subject of slavery is NOW what it said about the subject THEN.
Societies change because people's consciences sometimes change. Gladitorial entertainments changed because people's consciences changed.
Child labor changed because people's consciences about it changed.
Leaving children out to die changed because of change in people's consciences.
Sometimes for the better society changes.
Sometimes for the worse society changes.
The Atlantic Slave Trade was not like the slavery which most of the Old Testament and New Testament spoke of.
That is another discusssion which the fair minded person should want to examine.
But generally, Slavery is viewed differently by many societies today under a different feeling in the conscience. We can thank God for that. At least to a big degree we can.
The Bible didn't change. God's will may have won over more people.
And the winning over of more people caused a change in society.
I think that that is different from saying - "God permitted slavery then and then changed and no longer permitted it."
It is not as simplistic as that. And if this is too long a post, it really has left a lot unsaid which could be said to analyze the whole issue.
17 Jan 13
Originally posted by sonshipDoes He still permit it?
The Bible didn't change. God's will may have won over more people.
And the winning over of more people caused a change in society.
I think that that is different from saying - God permitted slavery then and then changed and no longer permitted it.
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Originally posted by FMF
Does He still permit it?
Does He still permit it?
If you mean that is it possible that somewhere in the world we may find that a slave of some kind exists, yes.
One could unfortunately still find slavery being practiced.
One could also still find rape, murder, leaving children to die, divorce.
Is God "permitting" this slavery ? Yes in some sense.
Is God endorsing, encouraging, pleased with this slavery ?
What do you think?
Bible hasn't changed. Kidnapping is still considered a sin.
I don't see why kidnapping to make a slave God should be happy with then or now.
Do you think the instance of finding slavery practiced somewhere in 2013 proves that God "permits" slavery as an expression of His perfect will ?
17 Jan 13
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipNo. Personally, I don't think that slavery being permitted in OT times has anything whatsoever to do with "God". I think it was a man made code. It was the way things were, and the literature of that time reflects it. Just as it is the widespread existence of different man made codes that means slavery is no longer permitted in almost every place on earth nowadays and is not advocated by Christians.
Do you think the instance of finding slavery practiced somewhere in 2013 proves that God "permits" slavery as an expression of His perfect will ?
Your attempts to explain and justify the OT condoning/permitting/endorsing slavery in the context of them being "God's instructions" are actually very interesting to read and no one on this site has come anywhere doing it with the same degree of nuance that you have, at least not in the 7 years I have been here.
But to try to frame the move from slavery-permitted to slavery-not-permitted as an example of something NOT CHANGING - as robbie is doing [in defence of galveston75's nonsensical assertion] does not withstand scrutiny, hence all his defensive personal remarks aimed at me and his refusal to address points raised.
17 Jan 13
Originally posted by FMFEVIDENCE NIL! no not a shred, same old self certified opinions.
No. Personally, I don't think that slavery being permitted in OT times has anything whatsoever to do with "God". I think it was a man made code. It was the way things were, and the literature of that time reflects it. Just as it is the widespread existence of different man made codes that means slavery is no longer permitted in almost every place on earth nowada ...[text shortened]... all his defensive personal remarks aimed at me and his refusal to address points raised.