Originally posted by FMF
I think it is not in the best interests of the English language to tolerate people using the word 'know' and the word 'believe' as synonyms. If we do, all bets are off when it comes to logical discussions. You get people parading their own "beliefs" as "evidence". It may be a fact that someone believes A. But to then say that is proof that A is a fact is nonsens ...[text shortened]... ne might even have to resort to ridicule as we fight the English language's corner.

But you appear to be claiming in this thread that we can never 'know' anything rendering it a totally useless word surely?

Originally posted by dystoniac
Question: "What happens after death?"

Answer: Within the Christian faith, there is a significant amount of confusion in regards to what happens after death. Some hold that after death, everyone “sleeps” until the final judgment, after which everyone will be sent to Heaven or Hell. Others believe that immediately after the moment of death, people are ins ...[text shortened]... n whether or not they had trusted Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Matthew 25:46; John 3:36).

Where do bad folks go when they die?
They don't go to heaven where the angels fly
They go to the lake of fire and fry
Won't see them again 'till the fourth of July

I knew a lady who came from Duluth
She got bit by a dog with a rabid tooth
She went to her grave just a little too soon
And she flew away howling on the yellow moon

Where do bad folks go when they die?
They don't go to heaven where the angels fly
They go down to the lake of fire and fry
Won't see them again 'till the fourth of July

Now the people cry and the people moan
And they look for a dry place to call their home
And try to find some place to rest their bones
While the angels and the devils try to make them their own

Where do bad folks go when they die?
They don't go to heaven where the angels fly
They go down to the lake of fire and fry
Won't see them again 'till the fourth of July

Originally posted by FMF
I like speculating about things that I will find the answer to while I am still alive.

I believe I have found the answer while still alive. Do you have reason to believe that the answer is unobtainable while still alive?

Originally posted by twhitehead
I believe I have found the answer while still alive. Do you have reason to believe that the answer is unobtainable while still alive?

Yes, I have no reason to take what you say at face value.

As the Bard said, and so far he remains uncontradicted through anything I can reasonably accept:

To die, to sleep;
To sleep, perchance to dream. Ay, there's the rub,
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come,
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause.
...
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
...
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?

What remains uncontradicted is Shakespeare's use of the verb "to know."

"we know not of" anything after death, no matter what we choose to believe.

Not that it is a useful exercise to explain rational ideas to those wedded to an irrational idea or belief.

Originally posted by Scriabin
What remains uncontradicted is Shakespeare's use of the verb "to know."

"we know not of" anything after death, no matter what we choose to believe.

Not that it is a useful exercise to explain rational ideas to those wedded to an irrational idea or belief.

I am still unclear what you mean by 'to know'. I believe I know what happens after death and I see no difference between that knowledge and plenty of other knowledge I have including day to day experiences. You apparently do see a difference. What is it?

You appear to be saying that the only information we can obtain about the possibility of consciousness after death is through the report of someone who has experience it. I dispute that.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I am still unclear what you mean by 'to know'. I believe I know what happens after death and I see no difference between that knowledge and plenty of other knowledge I have including day to day experiences. You apparently do see a difference. What is it?

You appear to be saying that the only information we can obtain about the possibility of consciousness after death is through the report of someone who has experience it. I dispute that.

support your assertion.

You say " I believe I know what happens after we die."
I could say the same thing, assuming I wanted to represent an experience about which I formed an opinion as established fact. When I had my wisdom teeth removed, I was given a little too much anesthesia. I stopped breathing and my heart stopped. I was clinically dead for a very short period -- not long enough to deprive my brain of oxygen or do damage. However, I experienced this "death" as a sense of everything rushing away from me, as a picture growing smaller and smaller, or as seemingly leaving my body and looking at the scene from a distance. Then all went so black that when I was revived and then woke from the coma state accidentally induced, I realized none of the sensations normally found when one is sleeping or put out lightly: I had no sense that time had passed at all, no dreams, nothing. Later, I was told my sensations or experience was what was normal and common -- the shrinking or feeling of traveling up and away was due to my consciousness shutting down, similar to the way old cathode ray TV sets used to shrink down and wink off.

Do I know what happens after death? No. I know what happened to me. I have no knowledge about what happens after death if you are not revived. I have an opinion, a belief that the oblivion I experienced is all you get, which can be alright, if you are dressed for it. Wear clean underwear.

What you've said means only that you have an opinion, you suppose you know, etc. Here is why:

The word "know" can only be a transitive verb and the verb
"believe," whether or not it has the same object, takes us to the definitions of that verb, provided below.

A transitive verb requires an object in order to be grammatical (used properly):

1 a (1): to perceive directly : have direct cognition of
(2): to have understanding of <importance of knowing oneself>
(3): to recognize the nature of : discern

b (1): to recognize as being the same as something previously known
(2): to be acquainted or familiar with
(3): to have experience of

2 a: to be aware of the truth or factuality of : be convinced or certain of
b: to have a practical understanding of <knows how to write>

The word to "believe," on the other hand, may be used as a transitive or as an intransitive verb.

An intransitive verb does not act on an object. For example, "believe" is intransitive in the sentence "I believe I know."

Without the "what happens after we die" as an object, the word "know" in the sentence above is meaningless.

But if the object of the verb "know" is "what happens after we die," then you must be referring to one of the definitions provided.

The verb "believe," appears to be used intransitively in your sentence.

To believe, in an intransitive sense:

1 a: to have a firm religious faith
b: to accept as true, genuine, or real <ideals we believe in> <believes in ghosts>

2: to have a firm conviction as to the goodness, efficacy, or ability of something <believe in exercise>

3: to hold an opinion : think <I believe so>

"Believe" used in a transitive sense must have an object in the original sentence referring to the idea you "believe I know" -- namely -- what happens after we die,

Believe means, in a transitive sense:

1 a: to consider to be true or honest <believe the reports> <you wouldn't believe how long it took>
b: to accept the word or evidence of <I believe you> <couldn't believe my ears>

2: to hold as an opinion : suppose <I believe it will rain soon>

Originally posted by dystoniac
Question: "What happens after death?"

Answer: Within the Christian faith, there is a significant amount of confusion in regards to what happens after death. Some hold that after death, everyone “sleeps” until the final judgment, after which everyone will be sent to Heaven or Hell. Others believe that immediately after the moment of death, people are ins ...[text shortened]... n whether or not they had trusted Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Matthew 25:46; John 3:36).

i am sorry but I cannot accept this, would you please firstly define your terms in a lucid manner, for you are using terminology that may be unfamiliar to many, in order to explain concepts and thus your arguments may be cloaked in semantics and even be prone to presupposition as a consequence, for example, the term 'soul', will you tell the forum the meaning of the term soul, what is its nature, what it originally meant to the Hebrews, what it means in terms of original language, whether it is mortal, distinct from the body, transcends death etc etc, for it seems to me, that unless you can clearly define this then you're argument fails in objectivity and may indeed be false unless you can clearly define this term.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i am sorry but I cannot accept this, would you please firstly define your terms in a lucid manner, for you are using terminology that may be unfamiliar to many, in order to explain concepts and thus your arguments may be cloaked in semantics and even be prone to presupposition as a consequence, for example, the term 'soul', will you tell the forum t rgument fails in objectivity and may indeed be false unless you can clearly define this term.

I agree wholeheartedly. If, as some say, the soul lives eternally, well, there are fish and animals mentioned in Genesis which have "soul". I believe the word soul simply means "breath life".
The Bible says that God created the same life force, called “soul,” for both animals and man, but it is hard to see that in most English Bibles, because the translators say “soul” when the verse refers to humans, but use other English words such as “creature,” “thing,” “life,” etc., when the verse refers to animals. The soul, the life, in animals and in mankind does not “go” anywhere when the animal or person dies, it just ceases to be. Interestingly, most Christians recognize that about animals, and realize that animals do not go to heaven or “hell” when they die. Their body decays, and their soul is gone. What we need to understand is that the Bible says people and animals are alike in that when they die, their body decays and returns to dust, and their soul dies too.

Originally posted by FMF
No you don't. You believe something. You are sure of it. You have faith that it is so. But I can assure you, you do not know. That much, I know for sure.

I see your point, and you are correct in a sense, but I am so convinced of the promises of God that I have staked my eternal future on it. Can you say the same? You could, if you believed also.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Where do bad folks go when they die?
They don't go to heaven where the angels fly
They go to the lake of fire and fry
Won't see them again 'till the fourth of July

I knew a lady who came from Duluth
She got bit by a dog with a rabid tooth
She went to her grave just a little too soon
And she flew away howling on the yellow moon

Where do bad fo ...[text shortened]... They go down to the lake of fire and fry
Won't see them again 'till the fourth of July

Wow, you're a poet and don't even know it.....

Originally posted by Scriabin
support your assertion.

You say " I believe I know what happens after we die."
I could say the same thing, assuming I wanted to represent an experience about which I formed an opinion as established fact. When I had my wisdom teeth removed, I was given a little too much anesthesia. I stopped breathing and my heart stopped. I was clinically dead for a ve ...[text shortened]...
2: to hold as an opinion : suppose <I believe it will rain soon>

Wow...you guys are heavy....I never knew the subject of after-life destinations could be so....so........so............so.......😴

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i am sorry but I cannot accept this, would you please firstly define your terms in a lucid manner, for you are using terminology that may be unfamiliar to many, in order to explain concepts and thus your arguments may be cloaked in semantics and even be prone to presupposition as a consequence, for example, the term 'soul', will you tell the forum t ...[text shortened]... rgument fails in objectivity and may indeed be false unless you can clearly define this term.

These are not my words, which was politely pointed out by LemonJello, and while I admit to the cut-n-paste travesty, my point was simply what the post stated. For exact information please refer to the site, coutesy of LJ
http://www.ghttp://www.gotquestions.org/what-happens-death.html

After reading your reply to my post, I must admit that I am still not lucid...you are digging way too deep, my friend. It really isn't all that complicated, but as I am not lucid, how would I know?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I agree wholeheartedly. If, as some say, the soul lives eternally, well, there are fish and animals mentioned in Genesis which have "soul". I believe the word soul simply means "breath life".
The Bible says that God created the same life force, called “soul,” for both animals and man, but it is hard to see that in most English Bibles, because the transl ...[text shortened]... alike in that when they die, their body decays and returns to dust, and their soul dies too.

I don't know what the Bible says about animals, but I can assure that not ALL Christians believe what you assert regarding animals. I, for one, do not know where animals go, but as creatures of God, I'm sure that their destination after death cannot be worse than what they experienced on earth. Animals were NOT created in God's image-only man; therefore, they do not have the same status as man in God's view.

Originally posted by dystoniac
I don't know what the Bible says about animals, but I can assure that not ALL Christians believe what you assert regarding animals. I, for one, do not know where animals go, but as creatures of God, I'm sure that their destination after death cannot be worse than what they experienced on earth. Animals were NOT created in God's image-only man; therefore, they do not have the same status as man in God's view.

You might like this sermon. I particularly like it because it is really short and talks about dogs.

http://www.chapel.duke.edu/worship/sunday/viewsermon.aspx?id=257

Originally posted by dystoniac
I am so convinced [...] that I have staked my eternal future on it. Can you say the same?

No. But why would want to say such a thing?

Isn't the U.S. and the rest of the world now paying the heavy price for people with strong beliefs (vis a vis their own need for money and property) staking their "eternal future" on something conjured up by speculation?