What Else in Revelation 14 ?

@Rajk999

Rev 14 has the perfect definition of the Saints in Christ. The Elect, the ones chosen to rule with Christ.

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (Revelation 14:12 KJV)

In the seventh chapter of Revelation 144,000 Jews of the twelve tribes of Israel are SEALED for protection. These are sanctified to God for preservation through the terrible persecution of Antichrist over ALL monotheisms.

Their turning to Jesus Christ is at the end of the tribulation. Through it they are still the saints by way of being set aside positionally.

This means that the 144,000 Firstfruits standing with the Lamb on the heavenly Mt. Zion in chapter 14 are not the same group as the 144,000 preserved Jews from the twelve tribes in chapter 7.

The principle of a limited REMNANT is the same.
The nature of the two groups is not.

Through the great tribulation the Christians and the Jews are especially targeted by Antichrist. These are those who keep the commandments of God and those who have the faith of Jesus.

See Revelation 14:12; 12:17;

Now, Rajk999 is ever always concerned about obedient Christians.

If you will look at outline section 1.) concerning the early RAPTURE of the Firstfruits.

It says that these are ones who follow the Lamb [Christ] wherever He goes. This indicates their obedience and not just their being believers.

Achtung!

"These are they who follow the Lamb wherever He may go.
These were purchased from among men as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

And in their mouth no lie was found, they are without blemish." (vs.4,5)

Surely they are a remnant of completely obedient Christians living in the earth at that time.

Brother Ironside brings out a good point in his exposition of Revelation , saying no lie in their mouth means all their faults they confess. They are confessed up. That would imply the truthfulness of CONFESSING any known failures.

Its a good thought IMO.

Witness Lee says that they express in their living only Jesus Christ. Their expression is not of the fallen man at all but of those who step by step are obedient to the Christ whom they follow where ever He leads them.

Another good bit of ministry by one who knew obedience to Christ's inward promptings and leading.

@sonship said
@Rajk999

Rev 14 has the perfect definition of the Saints in Christ. The Elect, the ones chosen to rule with Christ.

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (Revelation 14:12 KJV)

In the seventh chapter of Revelation 144,000 Jews of the twelve tribes of Israel are SEALED for ...[text shortened]... e commandments of God and those who have the faith of Jesus.

See Revelation 14:12; 12:17;

TWO sets of 144,000 ?

What a shameless bible twister.

Some respected expositors would teach that of course, the 144,000 mentioned in Rev. 7 are the same as the 144,000 mentioned in Rev. 14.

I held pretty much to this view. Latter I changed. But this is not a critical tenet of the Christian faith. If you come to this Christian, I will make the case that they are two groups.

The Father and the Lamb are mentioned in connection to the 144,000 raptured in chapter 14.

The Another Angel arising the rising of the sun mentioned in connection to the 144,000 Israelites from the twelve tribes.

I am persuaded that the latter references is to Christ more in His capacity as the Angel of Jehovah in the Old Testament. Something in chapter 7 therefore is more related to God's faithfulness to Jews in the old covenant.

He will preserve a remnant who at the end of the great tribulation realize that their national Messiah was indeed Christ. Each of the twelve tribes of Israel contribute to this remnant.

The 144,000 of chapter 14 have the name of their Father on their forehead (14:1) indicating the sonship relationship to God.

The 144,000 of chapter 7 have the seal of the living God on them (7:2) indicating probably they are from the old covenant preserved by the faithfulness of God.

The chapter begins with a rapture. The Firstfruits of 144,000 are seen where? Standing in heaven with the Lamb they are. How did they get there? Of course they were raptured.

The Bible here doesn't emphasize the physical movement of them going up. Instead it first mentions Christ the Lamb in heaven AND with Him standing these overcoming Firstfruits among Christians. .

In other words SUDDENLY they were taken in their bodies to where they HEART has long been - in heaven with Christ. This is significant.

"And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads." (v.1)

Suddenly they appear physically where their minds and hearts have been spiritually.

Colossians 3:1-4 says -

"If therefore you were raised together with Christ, seek the things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.

Set your mind on the things which are above, not on the things which are on the earth.

For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. "

There will be a remnant of normal overcoming Christians who will not see physical death but will suddenly be removed from this earth and taken to the third heavens where Jesus Christ presently is now.

This is how all Christians should be.

Rajk999 is ever always harping on OBEDIENCE, obedience, obedience to Jesus Christ.

In the first vision of chapter 14 the NORMAL followers of the Lamb are suddenly seen standing not on the earth but in Heaven with Him.

They followed Him right up into Heaven. They lived like Enoch in Genesis. He walked with God and suddenly was not found on the earth. Where he went we are not told. But He walked with God.

These 144,000 normal victors of faith are an end times collective Enoch. We all should aspire to be normal in this way as Christians. That the vision is a prophecy is not the only important thing. But that they are NORMAL, not average but NORMAL. Walking with Christ and suddenly removed to stand with Christ in Heaven just before He descends.

Again Colossians:

"If therefore you were raised together with Christ, seek the things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. Set your mind on things which are above, not on the things which are on the earth.

For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
When Christ our life is manifested, then you also will be manifested with Him in glory." (Col. 3:1-4)

@sonship said
Rajk999 is ever always harping on OBEDIENCE, obedience, obedience to Jesus Christ.

In the first vision of chapter 14 the NORMAL followers of the Lamb are suddenly seen standing not on the earth but in Heaven with Him.

They followed Him right up into Heaven. They lived like Enoch in Genesis. He walked with God and suddenly was not found on the earth. Where he we ...[text shortened]... hrist our life is manifested, then you also will be manifested with Him in glory." (Col. 3:1-4) [/b]

Your advice to people is forget about obedience to Christ and just be normal followers? What is that about? Fabricating and twisting again? Obedience to the commandments is mentioned three times in Revelation. Here they are

Rev_12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev_14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Notice that in the end entry into the New Jerusalem is for those that do His commandments. Only they have right to the tree of life and enter into the city.

Normal Christians is not mentioned. Your fabricated nonsense is going to lead people to the lake of fire.

@Rajk999

Your advice to people is forget about obedience to Christ

This is now about the fourth accusation recently you will not back up with evidence.

Watch. Please cut and paste explicit instructions from me to anyone to "forget about obedience to Christ" .

@sonship said
@Rajk999

Your advice to people is forget about obedience to Christ

This is now about the fourth accusation recently you will not back up with evidence.

Watch. Please cut and paste explicit instructions from me to anyone to "forget about obedience to Christ" .

What is a NORMAL CHRISTIAN.
Why are you telling people to be NORMAL CHRISTIANS.
Where did the bible say to be NORMAL CHRISTIANS
Why are you capitalizing the word NORMAL

In a nutshell you are saying that Rajk999 talks about obedience but you are telling them to be NORMAL.

What is that about?

Growth of plants is a major theme in Revelation 14.

There is growth and ripening of His people as Firstfruits - early before the great tribulation. (Rev. 14:1-5)

There is growth and ripening of His people as Harvest - late at the end of the great tribulation. (Rev. 14:14-16)

And we must not forget the Grapes of Wrath - God's enemies who have their own RIPENING to a point of meriting His severest crushing at Armageddon. (Rev. 14:17-20)

My main comments have been about the positive aspect - the maturing and ripening of God's redeemed CROP on earth comprising of EARLY ripened ones (a minority) and LATTER ripened ones (the majority).

But here we see the enemies of God as grapes have also reached their evil maturing point.

"And another angel came out of the altar he who has authority over fire, and he cried with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying,

Send forth your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are FULLY RIPENED. (Rev. 14:18,19)

They can get NO WORSE. These will PHYSICALLY oppose God when Christ descends over the Holy Land.

"And the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth and cast it into the great winepress of the fury of God.

And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood came out of the winepressup to the bridles of the horses for a thoudand six hundred stadia." (v.19,20)

Jesus Christ and His army of overcoming saints coming down from Heaven will slaughter Antichrist and his armies. Praise the Lord Jesus for His great victory.

@sonship said
Growth of plants is a major theme in Revelation 14.

There is growth and ripening of His people as Firstfruits - early before the great tribulation. (Rev. 14:1-5)

There is growth and ripening of His people as Harvest - late at the end of the great tribulation. (Rev. 14:14-16)

And we must not forget the Grapes of Wrath - God's enemies ...[text shortened]... n from Heaven will slaughter Antichrist and his armies. Praise the Lord Jesus for His great victory.

Remember that the overcoming Saints with Christ would be the ones that are OBEDIENT to His commandments. Not the NORMAL Christians ... lol 😀

What the hell is a NORMAL Christian??

@Rajk999

What is a NORMAL CHRISTIAN.

A normal Christian life is an overcoming through His grace Christian life. Christ is enough for everyone who believes in Him to overcome in Him.

It is not above the standard. It is simply at the standard. It is abnormal that Christians would be defeated and backslidden. Christ IS and HAS enough grace that we may all overcome.

Why are you telling people to be NORMAL CHRISTIANS.

Average is not what God expects. But normally overcoming in the grace of Christ is what God seeks,

The journey from Egypt to Canaan should only take eleven days.
The children of Israel, because of their unbelief, dragged it out to forty years.

This is a type. God has provided enough grace, if we cooperate, to make the journey in eleven days. But abnormally we do not believe His word and it takes us typically forty years (so to speak).

You should read Watchman Nee's singular classic contribution "The Normal Christian Life". The audio tape can be found on Youtube.

Where did the bible say to be NORMAL CHRISTIANS

If you enter into the spirit of the New Testament you should see that to overcome and be victorious in Christ should be the normal experience of the believer.

Our unbelief causes the abnormal situation of being defeated to be to often our situation.

In the seven epistles to the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3 all the overcoming ones were not to overcome the exact same things.
But they were each called to overcome.

It was often according to what burden the Lord placed on them to be victors over or certain situations relevant to their environments.

Each church letter ends with a call and a prize promised to he who overcomes. It should mean he who is a normal partaker of the rich grace there is available in Jesus Christ.