Originally posted by Dasa
I can have it both ways ......[...]
No one worked it out.

Both ways? But you seem now to be wanting to have it three ways.

#1- The OP: "...the speed of light was known to Indians in the Vedic period".

#2- Your 3rd post - "The speed of light was never worked out by the Vedas".

#3 - Your 7th post - "No one worked it out" and yet they knew it, although it wasn't accurate, and although you don't know why.

Look, I'm sure no one doubts your sincerity, Dasa.

Originally posted by Dasa
No one worked it out. And the figures that were presented relate to a different time trillions of years ago

If, as you claim, "no one worked it out", who "presented" these "figures" and where did the "figures" come from?

you have to realize that when light travels through the cosmos it can travel at different speeds according to the circumstances.

And you're saying the Vedas were unable to come to terms with this?

Originally posted by FMF
If, as you claim, "no one worked it out", who "presented" these "figures" and where did the "figures" come from?

[b]you have to realize that when light travels through the cosmos it can travel at different speeds according to the circumstances.

And you're saying the Vedas were unable to come to terms with this?[/b]

Imagine that archaeologists, digging a thousand year old virgin site in

Antarctica, come across an inscription deep underground that shows the

sun, and next to it the numbers 186,000 miles per second, the speed of

light. What would the world do? More likely than not, this find will

not be accepted by scholars. A fraud, they would say, committed for

cheap fame. The reputation of the archaeologists will be ruined. If

they didn't hold tenure, they will lose their jobs.



Only lunatics will support them, claiming that this proves that aliens

have visited the earth from time to time. The high priests of the

academy will say that even if the find was genuine it proves nothing;

at best it is a coincidence.



But what an astonishing coincidence! Just the right number out of an

infinite different numbers!



The speed of light was first determined in 1675 by Roemer who looked at

the difference in the times that light from Io, one of the moons of

Jupiter, takes to reach earth based on whether it is on the near side

of Jupiter or the far side. Until then light was taken to travel with

infinite velocity. Even Newton assumed so.



But why are we talking about the absurd scenario of the archaeologists

in Antarctica? Because, we are confronted with a situation that is

quite similar!



I am an archaeologist of texts. I read old texts from the point of view

of history of science. One such book is the celebrated commentary on

the Rigveda by Sayana (c. 1315-1387), a minister in the court of King

Bukka I of the Vijayanagar Empire in South India.



In a hymn addressed to the sun, he says that it is ``remembered that

the sun traverses 2,202 yojanas in half a nimesha.''



This statement could either relate to the speed of the sun or to that

of light. The units are well known. For example, the Indian epic

``Mahabharata", conservatively dated to 400 BC - 400 AD, defines 1

nimesha to be equal to 16/75.3 seconds; 1 yojana is about 9 miles.

Substituting in Sayana's statement we get 186,536 miles per second.



Unbelievable, you'd say! It cannot be the speed of light. Maybe it

refers to the speed of the sun in its supposed orbit around the earth.

But that places the orbit of the sun at a distance of over 2,550

million miles. The correct value is only 93 million miles and until

the time of Roemer the distance to the sun used to be taken to be less

than 4 million miles. This interpretation takes us nowhere.



What about the possibility of fraud? Sayana's statement was printed in

1890 in the famous edition of Rigveda edited by Max Muller, the German

Sanskritist. He claimed to have used several three or four hundred

year old manuscripts of Sayana's commentary, written much before the

time of Roemer.



Is it possible that Muller was duped by an Indian correspondent who

slipped in the line about the speed? Unlikely, because Sayana's

commentary is so well known that an interpolation would have

been long discovered. And soon after Muller's ``Rigveda'' was

published, someone would have claimed that it contained this

particular ``secret''knowledge. The fact that the speed in the text

corresponds to the speed of light was pointed out only recently

by S.S. De and P.V. Vartak. Also a copy of Sayana's manuscript,

dated 1395 AD, is available.



Further support for the genuineness of the figure in the ancient book

comes from another old book, the Vayu Purana. This is one of the

earliest Puranas, considered to be at least 1,500 years old.

(The same reference is to be found in the other Puranas as well.)



In Chapter 50 of this book, there is the statement that the sun moves

3.15 million yojanas in 48 minutes. This corresponds to about 10,000

miles per second if considered as speed of light, and 135 million miles

for the distance to the sun, if considered as the speed of the sun.

Sayana's speed of light is exactly 18 times greater than this

speed of the sun! Mere numerology?



We must also not forget that the Puranas speak of the creation and

destruction of the universe in cycles of 8.64 billion years, that is

quite close to currently accepted value regarding the time of the big

bang.



For the rationalists these numbers are a coincidence. Given the

significance of these numbers, they'd look very carefully at the old

manuscripts of Sayana's commentary.



There are others who would say that consciousness, acting on itself can

find universal knowledge. Look, they'd say, by examining biological

cycles one can know the periods of the sun and the moon. So why

shouldn't it be possible to know other universal truths?



They'd add that ancient texts speak -- and this is true -- of embryo

transplants, multiple births from the same fetus, air and space travel,

slowing or speeding of time, weapons that can destroy the entire world.

They'd say that it is more than ancient science fiction, it shows that

the human imagination can envision all that can happen.



This brings us back to the question of whether the figure of 186,000

miles per second in Sayana's book is a astonishing coincidence,

an example of the powers of intuition, or a meaningless number.



What do you think?



Notes:



1. The Rigvedic hymn number is 1.50.

2. For a discussion of the technical issues download the

file speedlight.ps from the ftp directory on my homepage or

see http://www.ee.lsu.edu/kak/ and then check the

file speedlight.ps

You can also read this paper called ``The speed of light and

Puranic cosmology'' on the Los Alamos Physics Archive

physics/9804020.

Originally posted by Dasa
What do you think?

I think - indeed, I know - this is an unattributed copy and paste from one of the following sources:

http://www.cycleoftime.com/articles_view.php?codArtigo=61
http://www.indiastar.com/kak4.htm
http://www.indianscience.org/essays/t_es_kak-s_light.shtml
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?action=printpage;topic=1694.0
ftp://www.ece.lsu.edu/pub/kak/light.ps

Passing off plagiarized text as your own on this forum is not acceptable.

Originally posted by FMF
I think - indeed, I know - this is an unattributed copy and paste from one of the following sources:

http://www.cycleoftime.com/articles_view.php?codArtigo=61
http://www.indiastar.com/kak4.htm
http://www.indianscience.org/essays/t_es_kak-s_light.shtml
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?action=printpage;topic=1694.0
ftp://www.ece.lsu.edu/pub/kak/light.ps

Passing off plagiarized text as your own on this forum is not acceptable.

You directly asked me a question and I directly answered it.......so what game playing do you want to engage in now.

Originally posted by twhitehead
So, Dasa, do you agree that the two statements by you:
[b]Vedic knowledge at the foundation of modern science
and
..many things of what science knows to day is credited to Vedic literature
Are in fact false?

Both statements imply that modern science obtained important knowledge from the Vedas - which is not true.

You tried to support ...[text shortened]... r unsure that is is even a statement of the speed of light and might actually be something else.[/b]

At the time it was as accurate that it had to be according to circumstances trillions of years ago.....and who knows, it probably was that the Vedic presentation is correct and the scientific presentation is not.....because your taking the scientific presentation as the reference ......but that reference could easily be incorrect.

Originally posted by Dasa
You directly asked me a question and I directly answered it.......so what game playing do you want to engage in now.

An apology to the forum for plagiarism - i.e. passing off someone elses writing as your own - is in order, I reckon.

Originally posted by FMF
An apology to the forum for plagiarism - i.e. passing off someone elses writing as your own - is in order, I reckon.

Are you sitting in a chair in a mental asylum somewhere with a computer on your lap.......because you behaviour is very puzzling.

Originally posted by Dasa
At the time it was as accurate that it had to be according to circumstances trillions of years ago...and who knows, it probably was that the Vedic presentation is correct and the scientific presentation is not...because your taking the scientific presentation as the reference...but that reference could easily be incorrect.

"...As accurate that it had to be"? The "the Vedic presentation" is "probably" correct? Genuine science "could easily be incorrect"?

And you are expecting people to recognize and submit to the Vedic "authority" with regards to science when even you yourself are unable to muster an endorsement any more convincing than this?

How has the Science Forum reacted in the past to your opinion that Vedic knowledge forms the foundation of modern science?

Originally posted by FMF
"...As accurate that it had to be"? The "the Vedic presentation" is "probably" correct? Genuine science "could easily be incorrect"?

And you are expecting people to recognize and submit to the Vedic "authority" with regards to science when even you yourself are unable to muster an endorsement any more convincing than this?

How has the Science Forum react ...[text shortened]... the past to your opinion that Vedic knowledge forms the foundation of modern science?

Where have I said the Vedic knowledge is the foundation of modern science.

Originally posted by Dasa
it probably was that the Vedic presentation is correct and the scientific presentation is not.....because your taking the scientific presentation as the reference ......but that reference could easily be incorrect.

No, I am not taking the 'scientific presentation' as the reference. I am taking the actual measured speed of light as the reference. It has been measured many times by many people and I believe can even be measured using a bar of chocolate and a microwave oven:
http://www.smarterthanthat.com/experiments/measuring-the-speed-of-light/

If the measurements were inaccurate then much modern technology wouldn't work.

Originally posted by Dasa
Where have I said the Vedic knowledge is the foundation of modern science.

Its right there in the thread title!

Originally posted by twhitehead
Its right there in the thread title!

perhaps utherpendragon will be along soon to tell me I need to take hallucinogenic drugs if I am to truly appreciate Dasa's spiritual "instructions". 😛