09 Nov 09
3 edits
Originally posted by Bosse de NageBecause an even distribution of order would have less entropy than a disordered one. The singularity at the beginning of observable time was highly ordered, and in order to get to a state of maximum disorder it has to go through all states in between. It does so in a non-orderly fashion.
OK. Why do some objects seem to have more entropy than others? For example, ice compared to granite.
In other words, order is left over from the singularity, and that order is distributed in a more and more chaotic fashion over time.
09 Nov 09
Originally posted by AThousandYoungIn other words, order is left over from the singularity, and that order is distributed in a more and more chaotic fashion over time.
Because an even distribution of order would have less entropy than a disordered one. The singularity at the beginning of observable time was highly ordered, and in order to get to a state of maximum disorder it has to go through all states in between. It does so in a non-orderly fashion.
In other words, order is left over from the singularity, and that order is distributed in a more and more chaotic fashion over time.
Sounds disturbingly like this forum! 😵
10 Nov 09
Originally posted by AThousandYoungI disagree. Information is orthogonal to matter and space-time and thus has its own existence. I notice you didn't try to claim that space was just a result of matters relationship to itself.
When it is said that matter and space exist, all of the characteristics of both are contained within that statement. When one says information exists they have added nothing to the set of what exists, because it was implied when matter and space were said to exist.
If a certain piece of information never occurs in the universe does it exist or not? Was it implied or not when you said 'energy and space-time'?
The universe cannot be describes solely in terms of energy and space time - some information is required - the relationship between the energy and the space time- which includes both positional information and the laws of the universe.
10 Nov 09
Originally posted by twhiteheadWhat do you mean by "information"? The scientific meaning of the word has to do with the likelihood of an arrangement of matter in space.
I disagree. Information is orthogonal to matter and space-time and thus has its own existence. I notice you didn't try to claim that space was just a result of matters relationship to itself.
If a certain piece of information never occurs in the universe does it exist or not? Was it implied or not when you said 'energy and space-time'?
The universe [b]c ...[text shortened]... and the space time- which includes both positional information and the laws of the universe.
10 Nov 09
Originally posted by AThousandYoungWhy was the singularity ordered? Why does it have to get to a state of maximum disorder?
Because an even distribution of order would have less entropy than a disordered one. The singularity at the beginning of observable time was highly ordered, and in order to get to a state of maximum disorder it has to go through all states in between. It does so in a non-orderly fashion.
In other words, order is left over from the singularity, and that order is distributed in a more and more chaotic fashion over time.
Is 'entropy' another word for 'chaos'? Don't corpses decompose in an orderly fashion?
10 Nov 09
2 edits
Originally posted by twhiteheadThe universe cannot be describes solely in terms of energy and space time - some information is required - the relationship between the energy and the space time- which includes both positional information and the laws of the universe.
I disagree. Information is orthogonal to matter and space-time and thus has its own existence. I notice you didn't try to claim that space was just a result of matters relationship to itself.
If a certain piece of information never occurs in the universe does it exist or not? Was it implied or not when you said 'energy and space-time'?
The universe [b]c ...[text shortened]... and the space time- which includes both positional information and the laws of the universe.
Intelligent design?
10 Nov 09
Originally posted by josephwIt must be then, and it also proves the Christian Bible, a Christian God, Jesus being that God's son, Moses, etc etc.
The universe cannot be describes solely in terms of energy and space time - some information is required - the relationship between the energy and the space time- which includes both positional information and the laws of the universe.
Intelligent design?
10 Nov 09
Originally posted by Bosse de NageI don't know why the singularity was ordered, and theoretically it is impossible to know. This thread is about what exists, not why.
Why was the singularity ordered? Why does it have to get to a state of maximum disorder?
Is 'entropy' another word for 'chaos'? Don't corpses decompose in an orderly fashion?
Entropy refers to how many possible arrangements of matter would have the properties of the matter in question. Roll two six sided dice; the total "7" would have more entropy than the total "2" because there are 6/36 ways to make 7 and 1/36 ways to make 2. If you took a million pairs of dice and put every die so the "1" was facing up (ordered situation) - and began to vibrate the surface the dice are resting on, you would end up in the long run with more 7's than 1's. Why? Entropy. Why? Because there are more ways to make 7 than 1. That's all entropy is.
Corpses decompose in a somewhat ordered fashion because they start out ordered and in an ordered environment, but the specifics aren't ordered. Whether or not a gob of flesh falls off the left thigh, or the left eye is eaten before the nose...these things do not occur according to some orderly pattern.
10 Nov 09
1 edit
Originally posted by AThousandYoungOK, you've explained what entropy is. But that doesn't explain, not clearly anyhow, why objects differ from each other. Could you explain, using entropy, why a fish differs from a spoon?
I don't know why the singularity was ordered, and theoretically it is impossible to know. This thread is about what exists, not why.
Entropy refers to how many possible arrangements of matter would have the properties of the matter in question. Roll two six sided dice; the total "7" would have more entropy than the total "2" because there are 6/3 eaten before the nose...these things do not occur according to some orderly pattern.
The point is that in saying that entropy accounts for difference, you are setting up entropy, a property of matter, as some sort of selector, something that determines the way matter is.