Thou Shalt Not Repeat Others ??

@sonship

I think you missed my edit:

This might actually be a good opportunity for you sonship to examine the words of the quote concerned as a separate entity, before confirming whether or not they were said by Lee. - What would you make of the quote if the words were simply anonymous?!

'The Lord is not building His church in Christendom, which is composed of the apostate Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant denominations. This...is being fulfilled through the Lord's recovery, in which the building of the genuine church is being accomplished...Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, as well as Judaism, all [have] become an organization of Satan.'

Wtiness Lee's most unpopular words have been sited -

But Revelation 2 and 3 show that the Lord wants us to conquer three things: Judaism, Catholicism, and Protestantism. The Lord referred to those in Judaism as being of the synagogue of Satan. If anything of Judaism is still lingering in us, we will be defeated. We must conquer anything Judaistic.'

In the book "Miller's Church History" by Andrew Miller and Watchman Nee's book "The Orthodoxy of the Church" and in Witness Lee's Life Study of Revelation the second and third chapters of the book of Revelation was treated a prophecy.

The prophecy allegorically (to these teacher's understanding) is of the development of the history of the Christian church on earth up to the time of the second coming of Christ.

This is brief. See if you can understand this concise explanation.

And grasp all of it especially the last point.

1) The church in Thyatira is an allegorical prophecy of the Roman Catholic Church in history. (Rev. 2:18-29)

2.) The church is Sardis is an allegorical prophecy about the history of the Protestant Reformation. ( Rev. 3:1-6)

3.) The church in Philadelphia is an allegory of the recovery of the church life back to its original standard. (Rev.3:7-13)

4.) The church in Laodicea is a prophecy about the recovered church fallen again. In other words the fallen recovered church not able to hold on to her health until the second coming of Christ. (Rev. 3:14-22) .

watchman Nee and Witness Lee both taught that these four churches represent the state of Christians that will continue and be on the earth at the time of Christ's second coming.

Roman Catholicism which is involved in some demonic things.
Protestantism which has a reputation of being living but is dead.
The recovered church life which needs to hold fast what has been recovered.
The fallen church life which is the situation of being defeated by not being able to hold fast to the recovery.

These are the last three of the seven churches.
The first three also are representative of things but I have not mentioned them here because they are not a part of the offending quote - Ephesus (2:1-3:22), Smyrna (2:8-11) and Pergamos (2:12-17)

What is also mentioned is the Judaism which rejected Christ, opposed the apostles, and is against the New Testament. This situation is mentioned as "the synagogue of Satan" twice by Christ in this book at Revelation 2:9; 3:9.

This was not "hate speech" from Jesus Christ. Nor was it "hate speech" from expositors who expound what could be the interpretation of these words out of the mouth of Jesus.

That is enough for this post. In the next post I say something about the call for OVERCOMERS to come forth FROM the degradation of Catholicism's involvment with demonic things and OVERCOMERS to come forth from Protestantism's deadness.

Before I go further, something should be said about the structure of Revelation 2 and 3 which furnish the background for this comment from Witness Lee.

'My burden in this chapter is to show us how to conquer the satanic chaos and what to conquer. We may feel that as Christians, we should conquer sin, the world, our flesh, and our self. But Revelation 2 and 3 show that the Lord wants us to conquer three things: Judaism, Catholicism, and Protestantism. The Lord referred to those in Judaism as being of the synagogue of Satan. If anything of Judaism is still lingering in us, we will be defeated. We must conquer anything Judaistic.'

There are SEVEN letters to SEVEN churches. Lee took these seven letters to be also prophetic utterances about the development of the Christian church on earth until the second coming of Christ.

Most of the letters contain rebukes or exhortations to the recipients of the letter.
But to EACH of the seven there is a called for overcoming.

In other words, whatever the low, medium, or high spiritual condition is of the church Christ is speaking to, there is an expectation that any degradation should be overcome by the recipients IF they will be faithful.

This is not the overcoming for eternal life.
This is Christ's call to Christians of every age that His grace is able to empower them to OVERCOME whatever degradation may be infiltrating the Christian church.

The lowest point is with the church in Thyatira. But even with her there is the call and the reward offered that recipients of Christ's exhortation would overcome.

All of the letters are positive in this regard.
None are simple announcements of God's displeasure upon the hopeless.

The letters to the seven churches contain some strong rebukes.
The Christian Church NEEDS often some strong rebukes.

Christ says that those whom He loves, He chastises. So as with Christ so with a servant like Witness Lee, the rebukes are out of a heart of love. They are not merely to make people feel bad.

"As many as I love I reprove and discipline; be zealous therefore and repent." (Rev. 3:19)

@ghost-of-a-duke said

@ghost-of-a-duke quoted ministrybooks.org
Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, as well as Judaism, all have become an organization of Satan.

Is this your view, sonship?

Concerning the judgment of Babylon in Revelation the voice from heaven says

"And I heard another voice out of heaven, saying, Come out of her My people, that you may not participate in her sins, and that you may not receive of her plagues." (Rev. 18:4)

God's people down through the ages have been carried away captive from Wife of Christ to the Mother of the Prostitute.

This is a spiritual matter. And the coming out is a spiritual matter of coming out of everything that replaces Christ to Christ.

In the last days, God will allow the Antichrist to destroy Christiandom. That is not the Christians but the evil mixture which is called Babylon in Revelation.

The destruction of Christianity as an "anity" at the hands of the Antichrist will also be indirectly the judgment of God upon all the mixture which has corrupted the Christian church.

Beware of opposers of the Gospel who twist these concepts into what appears as hate speech against people.

"Come out of her My people" indicates that God views Christianity in its degraded state the same as ancient Babylon who carried the Israelites AWAY from their promise land.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
This is where we are at:

1. Plagiarism is wrong sonship. Stop doing it.


...That's it.

Never thought I’d see an atheist enforcing his own subjective morals on other people.
Fascinating.

@fmf said
@ghost-of-a-duke quoted ministrybooks.org
Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, as well as Judaism, all have become an organization of Satan.

Is this your view, sonship?

Good luck getting a straight answer.

@sonship said
Ghost,

With the time I have, I will concentrate on your posts.

Way to have an excuse ignore certain people I suppose.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

This might actually be a good opportunity for you sonship to examine the words of the quote concerned as a separate entity, before confirming whether or not they were said by Lee. - What would you make of the quote if the words were simply anonymous?!

Since thousands pages from messages by Lee are searchable with the Search Engine at www.ministrybooks.org. I as well as you can do that. You just have to want to take the time .

I would make a general comment though. I personally sat through so many sessions and messages with Witness Lee I know when what he spoke is being manipulated and twisted to suggest something else.

What easily impresses some uninformed bystander is detected right away as a either deliberate twisting or just an ignorant misunderstanding in quote mining for sensational and scandalous effect.

I know what Witness Lee taught in a way of full scope rather than selective quoting to convey false impressions.

More importantly I know the fruit of this kind of ministry has borne around the world.

Someone said to the effect "Well Charles Russell produced a large following too. So don't talk about many local churches as proof of truth". As if I meant numbers of enthusiasts was proof of truth being taught.

To such, conversely thousands of posts with cynical conspiracy theories and clever counterpoints also don't prove such posters have the truth either.

A question for any who followed the Witness Lee "false teacher" concept, cult leader.

Question:

Did Witness Lee teach that only if his ministry was received and books by him were read could an assembly of Christians in a locality be a genuine local church ?

What do you think?

In other words did Witness Lee teach that a local church was not a genuine one if they refused to receive his ministry ?

I'll wait a bit to see what kinds of sensible answers come.

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

This might actually be a good opportunity for you sonship to examine the words of the quote concerned as a separate entity, before confirming whether or not they were said by Lee. - What would you make of the quote if the words were simply anonymous?!

Since thousands pages from messages by Lee are searchable with the Search Engine at ...[text shortened]... piracy theories and clever counterpoints also don't prove such posters have the truth either.

So basically you prefer to cover your eyes and pretend the words attributed to Lee aren't to be trusted, rather than simply say if you actually agree with the words, irrespective of who said them?

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

So basically you prefer to cover your eyes and pretend the words attributed to Lee aren't to be trusted, rather than simply say if you actually agree with the words, irrespective of who said them?

By what form of convoluted "logic" did you construe anything I wrote to mean I want to close my eyes to the legitimacy of quotations from Witness Lee?

We have a failure of communication here.

Assuming that YOU don't want to be used and propagandized by bogus libel efforts, I would think you would be interested in verifying for yourself with the Search Engine if you can locate what is offered to formulate an opinion in your mind.

I think I was just saying that you can verify just as well as I can. I KNOW 98% or more of the libelous, slanderous gossip is based on half-truths.

If you care enough to let peoples' words influence your thinking on important matters, you can fact check it out for yourself.

Or its just more fun to see me scramble around bending over backwards that you don't consume gossipy lies? You can bare some burden if it is important to you.

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

So basically you prefer to cover your eyes and pretend the words attributed to Lee aren't to be trusted, rather than simply say if you actually agree with the words, irrespective of who said them?

By what form of convoluted "logic" did you construe anything I wrote to mean I want to close my eyes to the legitimacy of quotations from Wit ...[text shortened]... backwards that you don't consume gossipy lies? You can bare some burden if it is important to you.

All quotes I have posted here in this thread have been attributed to Witness Lee. I will treat them as such until you evidence to the contrary.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

All quotes I have posted here in this thread have been attributed to Witness Lee. I will treat them as such until you evidence to the contrary.

Do what you want.

We in the local churches are secure.