Thou Shalt Not Repeat Others ??

@sonship said
But I want you to notice something here. Atheists may say the worst things about Christianity and organized religion such as "religion poisons everything".

Are there atheists in this community who say "religion poisons everything"? I don't recall anyone doing so.

You having a go at the likes of sonhouse, out of the blue?

@sonship said But if a servant of Jesus Christ CARING to rescue the situation and levels frank ministry to HELP the building of the church, atheists like Ghost-of-a-Duke here rise up in protest.

This is so ironic to me.

"We atheists can damn Christianity all we want.
But you Christians wanting to apply some strong medicine to help the believers, can't do so. We will cry with crocodile tears HOW UNFAIR you are."

The hypocrisy is monumental.

Where did Ghost of a Duke say "damn Christianity"? You're making stuff up. You have had to weather some criticism because of your behaviour. No one has said, in the process of calling you out, "damn Christianity".

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

[quote] 'The Lord is not building His church in Christendom, which is composed of the apostate Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant denominations. This...is being fulfilled through the Lord's recovery, in which the building of the genuine church is being accomplished...Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, as well as Judaism, all [have] become an organi ...[text shortened]... e REFERENCE more fully where you got this quote. Let me see source, and not just the name.

The first quote from Witness Lee that I shared in this thread came from "The Seven Spirits for the Local Churches." (Which I duly stated). Not all quotes however one comes across cite the particular book the words quoted came from. (As was the case in my last quote). In such a situation it is sufficient to attribute the quote posted to the person reported to have said it. - I would do the same thing, for example, if I shared a quote by Karl Marx, but was unaware where exactly he had made the quote. In such an event I would simply put the quote in quotation marks and the author's name underneath.

Are you contesting Witness Lee said what has been attributed to him? Are they words you would struggle with if they did come from him?

@sonship

'My burden in this chapter is to show us how to conquer the satanic chaos and what to conquer. We may feel that as Christians, we should conquer sin, the world, our flesh, and our self. But Revelation 2 and 3 show that the Lord wants us to conquer three things: Judaism, Catholicism, and Protestantism. The Lord referred to those in Judaism as being of the synagogue of Satan. If anything of Judaism is still lingering in us, we will be defeated. We must conquer anything Judaistic.'


Living Stream Ministry
www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?p

@FMF

Would you step out of our conversation? Ghost doesn't need you.
He's doing fine without you and you are a distraction to us getting to the bottom of things here.

@divegeester

As I asked FMF, I also ask you now. Would you please step out of the series of exchanges between me and Ghost for awhile? Ghost doesn't need you.

Now if we are interested in getting to the bottom of things to get to some truth, that would be helpful. I don't mean you agree with every teaching in the local churches.

If, however, you only want to pile it on so I have no real time to research and reply, I certainly can't limit the distractions.

Ghost,

With the time I have, I will concentrate on your posts.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Are you contesting Witness Lee said what has been attributed to him? Are they words you would struggle with if they did come from him?

No, not usually if I see quotations am I denying words were spoken.

Now at the kangaroo court they charged Jesus with saying that He would destroy the temple and build it in three days. Half - true.

So I need to check out the fuller context of the selected words.

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Are you contesting Witness Lee said what has been attributed to him? Are they words you would struggle with if they did come from him?

No, not usually if I see quotations am I denying words were spoken.

Now at the kangaroo court they charged Jesus with saying that He would destroy the temple and build it in three days. Half - true.

So I need to check out the fuller context of the selected words.

Great, please do so. (Sorry I couldn't provide precisely where they came from). In the meantime, let's ponder the wisdom of Lee in his 'Life Study of Colossians':


"Now, even while we are participating in the church life, we are sitting with Him (Jesus) in the heavenlies. On the one hand, we are in the church on earth; on the other hand, we are in Christ in the heavenlies. There is a great deal of traffic between the heavens and the church, traffic that moves faster than the speed of light."

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

In such a situation it is sufficient to attribute the quote posted to the person reported to have said it.

Sure, perhaps if you just want to go along with hearsay.

If you want to make sure what was portrayed to you is accurate, you might allow me to know who told you that and where ?

And here is why, from litigation records in court cases.

A few selected statements from expert witnesses at a trial concerning libel against Witness Lee. And I am not trying to alarm you. I only present some evidence of our past dealings with critics quote mining Witness Lee

DR. MELTON: Mr. Duddy has fairly consistently taken statements, usually individual sentences from the middle of paragraphs, out of context and made them to appear to say things that they were not even talking about.

...

Like most preachers, he speaks with images, and he speaks with hyperbole. He overstates cases to make a point and particularly with hyperboles, as any preacher, you can pull them out, put them in another context, and make them appear to be quite opposite of what Witness Lee was talking about. Witness Lee has a theology which underlies his thought, but it is not readily evident because he is preaching to lay people most of the time. He does not preach theology. He is not a great theologian or a systematic theologian, so his theology is not readily evident and he does not speak in abstract theological terms.

...

JUDGE SEYRANIAN: Mr. Morgan, will there be some of the material that is presented in The God-Men and how that has been taken out of context?

MR. MORGAN: Absolutely, Your Honor, with this witness and other witnesses also.

JUDGE SEYRANIAN: I’d be interested in hearing that.

MR. MORGAN: We will get to that very quickly, Your Honor. One more thing. Is there any thrust in Mr. Duddy’s work that the “Local Church” is a cult?

DR. MELTON: The thrust is twofold. In the introduction there is the discussion of the cult problem. It is left undecisive. It raises the issue, is it a cult or not? We are not ready to decide. The real problem is that SCP is identified as an anti-cult organization, and any group that they treat in depth is going to be identified in the public mind as a cult group, and if you go to Christian bookstores, where the book was sold, where I purchased it was at the Moody bookstore in Chicago, and it was on the shelf of books plainly marked as anti-cult books.

Samples copied without permission from

The Experts Speak Court testimony given at libel case against Witness Lee.

https://contendingforthefaith.org/en/the-experts-speak-j-gordon-melton-ph-d/

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

"Now, even while we are participating in the church life, we are sitting with Him (Jesus) in the heavenlies. On the one hand, we are in the church on earth; on the other hand, we are in Christ in the heavenlies. There is a great deal of traffic between the heavens and the church, traffic that moves faster than the speed of light."

You are piling on examples. If you are really interested in my replies, let me deal with the few that you have already submitted.

@sonship said
@divegeester

As I asked FMF, I also ask you now. Would you please step out of the series of exchanges between me and Ghost for awhile? Ghost doesn't need you.

Now if we are interested in getting to the bottom of things to get to some truth, that would be helpful. I don't mean you agree with every teaching in the local churches.

If, however, you only want to pile it on so I have no real time to research and reply, I certainly can't limit the distractions.

I honestly have no idea what it is you are asking of me.

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

In such a situation it is sufficient to attribute the quote posted to the person reported to have said it.

Sure, perhaps if you just want to go along with hearsay.

If you want to make sure what was portrayed to you is accurate, you might allow me to know who told you that and where ?

And here is why, from litigation records in c ...[text shortened]... inst Witness Lee.

https://contendingforthefaith.org/en/the-experts-speak-j-gordon-melton-ph-d/

Ah, so you are contesting Witness Lee said what has been attributed to him?

Again, are they words you would struggle with if they did come from him?


Edit: This might actually be a good opportunity for you sonship to examine the words of the quote concerned as a separate entity, before confirming whether or not they were said by Lee. - What would you make of the quote if the words were simply anonymous?!

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

'My burden in this chapter is to show us how to conquer the satanic chaos and what to conquer. We may feel that as Christians, we should conquer sin, the world, our flesh, and our self. But Revelation 2 and 3 show that the Lord wants us to conquer three things: Judaism, Catholicism, and Protestantism. The Lord referred to those in Judaism as being of the synagogue of Satan. If anything of Judaism is still lingering in us, we will be defeated. We must conquer anything Judaistic.'


Living Stream Ministry
www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?p

'My burden in this chapter is to show us how to conquer the satanic chaos and what to conquer.

This is quite consistent with the New Testament. The spiritual warfare of the Christians is not against flesh and blood. It is against spiritual forces.

And in victory over ground that God's enemy has in our being, we overcome him (Satan) by applying Christ's salvation to ourselves. In fact THIS is precisely what the enemy of God wants to HIDE from God's people.

The victory over the fallen self, the sinful self, the Devil cooperating self is the battle over not only the believer's being but the earth.

That Satan is at work in the fallen people (everyone of us) is shown in Jesus rebuking Satan behind the words of His leading disciple - Peter. In Peter's demand the Jesus pity Himself and not go to the cross, the wise Son of God detected Satan's work to hinder the operation of God to save man.

From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He mist go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes and be killed and on the third day be raised.

And Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him [Jesus], saying, God be merciful to You, Lord! This [crucifixion] shall by no means happen to You!

But He [Jesus] turned and said to Peter, Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me, for you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of men." (Matt. 16:21-23)

You see, hiding out in the self of fallen sinners is the enemy of God wanting to KEEP man in bondage AND to keep the earth for Satan.

Getting saved is not only a step to rescue sinners from judgment. It is also a strategic step to teach man how to detect God's enemy and DEFEAT Him by denying the fallen self and following the indwelling Spirit of Christ.

Following this rebuke of Satan behind Peter, Jesus says to follow Him we must learn to enjoy Him by denying our selves, our fallen devil infiltrated nature.

" ... you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of men.

Then Jesus said to His disciples, If anyone wants to come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me. For whoever wants to save his soul life shall lose it; but whoever loses his soul-life for my sake shall find it.

For what shall a man be profitted if he gains teh whole world, but forfeits his soul-life? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul-life?

For the Son of Man is to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and He will repay each man according to His doings." (Matt. 16:23b-27)

So Witness Lee was showing the audience what to conquer and how to conquer. It is mainly by denying the self, even the religious self, and enjoying the reality of the indwelling Christ.

The enemy is stopped by the cross. The Christian "carrying" his cross goes in victory in resurrection life.

Lee went on -

We may feel that as Christians, we should conquer sin, the world, our flesh, and our self. But Revelation 2 and 3 show that the Lord wants us to conquer three things: Judaism, Catholicism, and Protestantism.

I will devote another post to this. But what he is saying briefly is:

The Christian may think it is just a matter of him spiritually overcoming the weaknesses of the flesh, the pull of the world, the fallen self, etc.
But in actuality the spiritual warfare is over the "ISMS" which have kept God's people befuddled in religions of various kinds.

On one hand most religions seem as noble things in human culture. But the subtlety of God's enemy often is in religion to keep people in something other than the living Christ, the living God, and the living Spirit to win the battle over the earth.

We must fight for the experience of the Triune God and not be dampened in our living by ISMS of organized religion.

One of the main books by Witness Lee which spoke to this issue was Christ Verses Religion.