The Unreconcilable Creature

@medullah said
Some translations do render "Charity" as love, but the overall picture is to have intense kindness to each other (is that not what love or charity really is?)

I have encountered allegedly Christian sects that don't seem to sell the need for a bible, but I can't see how this works; how can you master a subject without defining it?

Timothy gave a very good insight into t ...[text shortened]... s this not what is happening when the priesthood makes excuses for going to war and killing people ?

Charity is brotherly love, it is the same Greek word. The discouraging of bibles issue is a ploy to keep the masses in ignorance, and forces then to place more trust in their pastors than they should. I know several Christian sects do this. Christian priesthood is mostly corrupt. There are some good ones of course but the leadership and doctrine have gone astray.

Yes, going off to war, or encouraging war is not something churches should encourage. Even something as basic as charity work. You would find that the churches are the least generous in times of dire need.

Even on an individual basis, people who go out and help others like the Good Samaritans Christ described are mostly nonChristians. Church doctrines discourage good works, discourage righteousness. They encourage what Paul described as the lesser things - church attendance, praying, bible study, singing hymns. all of which are outward signs of faith. The true test and proof of faith is charity as Paul said in 1 Cor 13. Charity is greater than faith.

A suspended student is an limited example of a reconcilable offender.
An expelled student is an analogy of a unreconcilable offender.

The suspended student is punished for correction and betterment.
It is a benevolent application of discipline for his good.

Expulsion is no longer trying to improve the offending.
Expulsion is to prevent his problem from spreading to others.

With God there is Corrective punishment.
But much worse there is Destructive punishment.

Because Corrective punishment has its limitations Destructive punishment then steps in. Correction has been in vain. Hope is gone. Toleration can no longer be the way to deal with the soul set to corrupt others with wicked example.

The time of correction with God is long but it will come to an end. It is hard to imagine that God would give up correction. But apparently a creature may harden and harden beyond remedy. Choosing evil under a reign of mercy has not been arrested. Choosing evil with nothing to arrest it must cause evil to increase even though the state of existence is not physical life.

Maybe it is like a stone falling and falling with increasing force.
Like the hardening of cement it just gets harder and harder when no counter force works against it.

Sounds positively beastly.

Sonship explaining his version of Jesus: Jesus loves you so much that even while you are a sinner and lost to him, he will come and die for you, that is how much he loves you.

Sinner to self-styled online preacher: I don’t believe the person you are talking about ever existed

Sonship explaining his version of Jesus: The. I’m afraid Jesus will oversee you being burnt alive for all eternity

Sinner to self-styled online preacher: that is morally incoherent, morally abhorrent and nonsensical. Why would this Jesus do that if he loved me?

Sonship explaining his version of Jesus: Because god is holy and it says so in my bible. But Jesus still loves you.

Sinner to self-styled online preacher: right.

@divegeester

Sonship explaining his version of Jesus: Jesus loves you so much that even while you are a sinner and lost to him, he will come and die for you, that is how much he loves you.

That is the New Testament's teaching about Jesus, not my invention.
"But God commends His own love to us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Rom. 5:8)

And Paul is repeating what Jesus taught His disciples.
You have to actually read the New Testament.

Sinner to self-styled online preacher:

Self style no. I repeated what the Apostle Paul preached.
You're being a self styled critic of the New Testament.

I don’t believe the person you are talking about ever existed

That's you unbelief.
But the Gospels record Jesus saying BEFORE Paul wrote it that He would have His body broken and His blood shed to establish a new covenant for the forgiveness of sins of many.

"Jesus took bread . . . and broke it and gave it to the disciples and said, Take, eat, this is My body. And He took a cup . . . this is My blood of the covenant which is being poured out for many for forgiveness of sins." (See Matt. 26:26-28)

It is not my creativity. You just think it never happened or there was no Jesus or He didn't teach and do these things. Why blame sonship?

Sonship explaining his version of Jesus: The. I’m afraid Jesus will oversee you being burnt alive for all eternity

You seem to be crediting me with the words of Jesus and His apostles.
I still haven't found "burnt alive" in there except for the one who go alive into the eternal fire in two places (Matt. 25:46 and Rev. 19:20). Are people "alive" in the "second death"? The rich man in Luke 16:22 had "died and was buried." He was in torment though.

But this version of God being able to reach beyond physical life to punish is Jesus' version of Jesus not sonship's. You can say you don't believe the version of Jesus that we see Jesus teaching.

Your version is that God cannot be loving and hate sin to such a degree.
your version is the Christ has the "kindness" but not the "severity".

But the NT says "Behold then the kindness AND severity of God . . . " (Rom. 11:22a) . As far back in the Old Testament we go we see God's love yet His severity against sin in one form or another.

" . . . Jehovah, Jehovah, God compassionate and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in lovingkindness and truth, Keeping lovingkindness with thousands of generations, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin; but He will by no means clear the guilty, but visit the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and upon the grandchildren to the third and fourth generation. " (Exodus 34:6,7)

This was God Himself speaking to Moses. His version of Himself is that He has both the attribute of kindness and forgiveness AND the severe exacting punishment for sin not letting the guilty do whatever they want with total impunity.

Your version of God is a love which the sinners can walk all over because they are dealing with a Barney the Dinosaur kind of ultra-liberal sloppy sap. We sinners (we I said) may prefer a God who does not hate sin. But that is our invention.

Sinner to self-styled online preacher:

You are misdirecting your disdain for the God of the Bible toward me.
What ever "self styling" you accuse me of I am portraying faithfully what is there in the Bible, from the mouth of God, from the mouth of Christ (God incarnate), and from the mouth of the Apostles.

When you try to use the Bible to uphold your "kindness ONLY and no severity" God it fails. It fails because of what the text says in many instances. For instance you brandish Psalm 136 about "His loving kindness is FOREVER". This is repeated some approximately 26 TIMES. Yet even in that Psalm you see "the kindness and severity" of God.

His kindness includes the destruction of the enemies of His redeemed.
"To Him who struck Egypt in their firstborn,
For His lovingkindness is forever.
And brought forth Israel from their midst;
With a mighty hand and an outstretched arm.
. . . And shook off Pharaoh and his force into the Red Sea;
For His lovingkindness is forever.
... To Him who struck great kings;
For His lovingkindness is forever.
And slew majestic kings,
For His lovingkindness is forever.
Sihon the king of the Amorites,
For His lovingkindness is forever.
And Og the king of Bashan.
For His lovingkindness is forever."

Unless you're blind you can see God's everlasting kindness is not without His severity against His unreconcilable adversaries and chronically rebellious enemies.

That's not sonship's self styling going on there.
That is YOUR preferred Psalm including both "the kindness and severity of God".

that is morally incoherent, morally abhorrent and nonsensical. Why would this Jesus do that if he loved me?

The answer is already given you above:
"But God commends His own love to us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Much more then, having now been justified in His blood, we will be saved through Him from the wrath. For we, being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled." (Romans 5:8-10)

Sonship explaining his version of Jesus: Because god is holy and it says so in my bible. But Jesus still loves you.

Because you are unable to erase these teachings from the Bible you misdirect your annoyance at me saying the fault is my self-styling invention.

Sinner to self-styled online preacher: right.

The NT says to "Behold the kindness and severity of God".
You reject the severity.
You only want to behold kindness.
You misdirect your blame towards someone pointing out faithfully the whole of
God's attributes as it is written there.

@divegeester said
Sonship explaining his version of Jesus: Jesus loves you so much that even while you are a sinner and lost to him, he will come and die for you, that is how much he loves you.

Sinner to self-styled online preacher: I don’t believe the person you are talking about ever existed

Sonship explaining his version of Jesus: The. I’m afraid Jesus will oversee you being burn ...[text shortened]... it says so in my bible. But Jesus still loves you.

Sinner to self-styled online preacher: right.

Sonship I’m sure you can see the utterly ridiculousness of this scenario which you defend.

@divegeester said
Sonship I’m sure you can see the utterly ridiculousness of this scenario which you defend.

You never take the same Bible and show how "His lovingkindness endures forever" means that it is impossible that the same God could be severe in His judgment.

This is what you should do to make your case about those parts of the Bible
showing the severe side of divine judgment.

As long as you hedge to take on that task it doesn't matter how much you ask me if I don't realize how "utterly ridiculous" those parts of the Bible's are.

You don't seem to get the point that all kinds of belittling of me doesn't solve your problem with what we are taught. Psalm 136 itself doesn't do the job you wanted it to do. Why don't you tell us how "utterly ridiculous" that Psalm is in verses 10,11,12,14,15,17,18,19,20,24.

Tell us how "utterly ridiculous" Luke 12:4-6 is.

It appears that God knew that some readers of Revelation would want to exercise their preference to tamper with what was revealed. The warning at the end preempts any one of us deeming the contents need to be changed maybe to make it less "utterly ridiculous" to our opinion.

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this scroll; And if anyone takes away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and out of the holy city; which is written in this scroll." (Rev. 22:18,19)

No exception is made for the words the Divegeesters of this world find to be "utterly ridiculous."

@sonship said
You never take the same Bible and show how "His lovingkindness endures forever" means that it is impossible that the same God could be severe in His judgment.

The 'good' bits are moot when there is such a morally depraved darkness at the very core of your religious dogma.

@sonship said
You never take the same Bible and show how "His lovingkindness endures forever" means that it is impossible that the same God could be severe in His judgment.

This is what you should do to make your case about those parts of the Bible
showing the severe side of divine judgment.

As long as you hedge to take on that task it doesn't matte ...[text shortened]... s 10,11,12,14,15,17,18,19,20,24[/b].

Tell us how "utterly ridiculous" Luke 12:4-6 is.

I can and have quoted dozens and dozens of scriptures which are contradictory to the notion of burning non Christians alive for eternity.

Why don’t you look at the scenario I’ve laid out above; it perfectly shows how what you believe is utterly ludicrous.

@sonship said
It appears that God knew that some readers of Revelation would want to exercise their preference to tamper with what was revealed. The warning at the end preempts any one of us deeming the contents need to be changed maybe to make it less "utterly ridiculous" to our opinion.

[b]"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone ...[text shortened]... No exception is made for the words the Divegeesters of this world find to be "utterly ridiculous."

Threatening me, another Christian, with more texts from your interpretation of your version of God’s vengeful nature, is a pointless exercise wouldn’t you agree?

@divegeester

I can and have quoted dozens and dozens of scriptures which are contradictory to the notion of burning non Christians alive for eternity.

No you haven't really imo. You couch the talk in a certain manner though.
You use the term "non Christians" to put a sectarian religious bias tone
to the matter.

Luke 12:4,5 does not say "Fear to be a non Christian". It is more instructions fear God. God is able to exact a supernatural judgment beyond what man can do. This is in BOTH regards of blessing and punishment.

"Revelation 20:15 does not say "non-Christians" were thrown into the lake of fire. It says whoever's name was not written in the book of life was thrown there.

I pay attention to exactly what is written.
You add your touch to it to accomplish a narrative serving your religious
purpose.

It is a subtle effect you want to achieve - " I can and have quoted dozens and dozens of scriptures which are contradictory to the notion of burning non Christians alive for eternity.

If you have paid attention I have explained that in the case of Matthew 25:31-46 these sheep and goats did not know who Jesus Christ was.
So according to how I think it should be understood the sheep that inherit eternal life are not born again, not Christians in this sense. And the goats are not non Christians in the sense of having another faith.

Anyway, I catch the subtly of how you frame your objection.
And in going back probably eight years or more I have in other words brought
attention to the same thing.

When the gospel message comes to a man such as Romans 10:8-13 the best thing to do is believe in Christ so that according to the promise you will be saved.

I don't think anyone hearing the gospel message should delay the matter for years while he tries to figure out statistically how fair or unfair God will be. He realizes he is a sinner. He realizes he is confronted with the opportunity to be saved by Jesus. He should immediately while the Lord can be found receive Him as Lord and believe in His resurrection.

I would not advise anyone to hear the New Testament and spend years delaying thinking - - - "Now let me see if this is fair. Let me see what the statistics are going to be. Is this a good plan or has God overlooked some problems."

You know YOU are in need of salvation, sinner.
Seek the Lord while He can be found. Call upon Him while He is near.
Let the wicked forsake his way and the unrighteous man his thoughts.
And let him return to the Lord. He will abundantly pardon you.
Procrastinating being saved because you think you first must know the statistical breakdown concerning non-Christians vs Christians is not wise.

Why don’t you look at the scenario I’ve laid out above; it perfectly shows how what you believe is utterly ludicrous.

When the disciples of Jesus asked Him whether there would be few or many who would be saved, He did not answer them head on with statistics. He did not answer them with percentages. He directed them as to what THEY should do. They should enter the narrow gate because the broader way would lead to destruction.

Grasp the spirit of the passage:

Luke 13:23

"And someone asked Him, Lord, are there only a few who are being saved?

And He said to them, Struggle to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to enter, yet will not be able."

They should go through the narrow door.
It should not be that one DELAYS or refuses to go through the narrow door until they know all the statistics and whether non-Christians will be dealt with justly by God. Obedience is for me to enter and for me to spread the good news to others.