04 Mar 05
Originally posted by NemesioI'm not ignorant. You simply said the pope wasn't infallible, you forgot to include "except during ex cathedra".
Originally posted by Darfius
[b]I already showed you we are supposed to pray to God and no one else. So when people pray to Mary, they are sinning. I don't pray to RB, he doesn't pray to me, we pray FOR each other, as our Lord Jesus did on the cross for His assailants. Case closed.
Yes. I've said this: People should not pray to Mary. W ...[text shortened]... e sick and bigotted propaganda
that your Cult Church promulgates about other faiths.
Nemesio[/b]
I've shown you. Saul asked for help from the dead and God turned away from him. We don't assume Biblical examples are isolated, they set precedences.
I don't believe anything from hearsay, I do research and scrutinize.
04 Mar 05
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesIt's translated just fine, but they didn't change around the orders of words, they just translated one Hebrew word to the corresponding English word. People in the time of the prophets rarely said "They did something." They said "the people who were there did something."
Could you elaborate on this, and give your explanation of why it has been mistranslated into English?
Instead of saying "the angels rejoiced" they said "the body of angels rejoiced".
04 Mar 05
Originally posted by DarfiusIf it translated just fine, then the meaning is as Nemesio described it.
It's translated just fine, but they didn't change around the orders of words, they just translated one Hebrew word to the corresponding English word. People in the time of the prophets rarely said "They did something." They said "the people who were there did something."
If the meaning is not as Nemesio described it, then there has been a translation error.
Which is it?
04 Mar 05
Originally posted by DarfiusYou are so totally out of your element Darfius, it's not even funny.
I'm wondering why you are projecting modern day English on ancient Hebrew.
The NT wasn't written in Hebrew, it was written in Aramaic, and the
source used for translation is Greek. In Greek, the nouns are 'declined.'
That is, in English the word 'Ball' can be an object or a subject, but in
Greek there are two different endings which make it clear what the object
and subject are. That's why word order doesn't really matter much.
In Greek, St Luke 15:10 reads:
ou tos, lego umin, ginetai chara enopion tov aggelon tou theou epi eni amaptolo metanoounti.
Thusly, I say to you, becomes joy before the messengers of the God on one sinner changing mind.
The angels aren't acting here, they aren't a noun in play, they are part of a
prepositional phrase 'before the messengers (aggelon, angels).'
That is, the rejoicing does not originate from, but in the presence of the angels.
The woman is rejoicing with her friends, the saved rejoice with the repentent sinner.
The analogue is consistent.
Please don't argue what you don't understand; it just makes you appear foolish.
Nemesio
04 Mar 05
Originally posted by NemesioI understand it great, I just didn't know which Testament it was from. The argument still stands, you are putting YOUR interpretation of what it says into it. Where does it say anything about anyone but angels and God? Where are you getting saved humans from? Let's put it into context:
You are so totally out of your element Darfius, it's not even funny.
The NT wasn't written in Hebrew, it was written in Aramaic, and the
source used for translation is Greek. In Greek, the nouns are 'declined.'
That is, in English the word 'Ball' can be an object or a subject, but in
Greek there are two different endings which make it clear what ...[text shortened]...
Please don't argue what you don't understand; it just makes you appear foolish.
Nemesio
I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it? And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost. Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.
pres·ence ( P ) Pronunciation Key (przns)
n.
The state or fact of being present; current existence or occurrence.
Immediate proximity in time or space.
The area immediately surrounding a great personage, especially a sovereign.
A person who is present.
A person's bearing, especially when it commands respectful attention: “He continues to possess the presence, mental as well as physical, of the young man” (Brendan Gill).
The quality of self-assurance and effectiveness that permits a performer to achieve a rapport with the audience: stage presence.
A supernatural influence felt to be nearby.
The diplomatic, political, or military influence of a nation in a foreign country, especially as evidenced by the posting of its diplomats or its troops there: “The American diplomatic presence in London began in 1785 when John Adams became our first minister” (Nancy Holmes).
Now, where do you see anything in there supporting someone else with the angels? I see that saying there was joy in the bearing of the angels.
04 Mar 05
Originally posted by DarfiusYou didn't know what Testament it came from? I cited it.
I understand it great, I just didn't know which Testament it was from. The argument still stands, you are putting YOUR interpretation of what it says into it. Where does it say anything about anyone but angels and God? Where are you getting saved humans from? Let's put it into context:
I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one si ...[text shortened]... lse with the angels? I see that saying there was joy in the [b]bearing of the angels.
[/b]
Let me teach you something about 'translation.' You can't take a
word from Greek and translate it into 16th century English and then
look up a synonym in a modern dictionary and then claim it is your
interpretation. You work from the original and translate it into the
vernacular of the time you live in.
The word 'presence' isn't even in the Greek, if you read my post.
The word is 'before.' There was 'rejoicing before the angels.' The
word before (enopion) is not the 'before' as in 'before and after,'
but before as in 'in front of.'
See St Luke 1:15 - ...great in the sight of the Lord.
St Luke 1:17 - he will go before him, to turn...
St Luke 1:19 - I stand in the presence of God...
94 times in the NT.
There was rejoicing in the presence of the angels. The angels aren't
doing the rejoicing in the case, otherwise it would say, 'The angels
rejoiced.'
This the problem with reading obsolete translations like the King James
without a Greek Concordance.
Nemesio
04 Mar 05
Originally posted by NemesioWell then the rejoicing is obviously God. Unless you can support your conjecture that it is saved humans rather than saved monkeys.
You didn't know what Testament it came from? I cited it.
Let me teach you something about 'translation.' You can't take a
word from Greek and translate it into 16th century English and then
look up a synonym in a modern dictionary and then claim it is your
interpretation. You work from the original and translate it into the
vernacular of the ...[text shortened]... th reading obsolete translations like the King James
without a Greek Concordance.
Nemesio
04 Mar 05
Originally posted by DarfiusOk. Let's review, again.
Well then the rejoicing is obviously God. Unless you can support your conjecture that it is saved humans rather than saved monkeys.
1) A woman finds her lost coin and then goes and rejoices with
her friends.
2) There is rejoicing in heaven over a repentent sinner.
Jesus is setting up an analogue here (introduced with the word 'outos'
meaning 'thus' or 'in the same way' or 'just so'😉.
The woman (and shepherd in the previous example) are representative
of God. The coin (or sheep in the previous example) are the repentent
sinner. Who are the friends (we already know that it isn't the angels,
since the rejoicing takes place in their presence, not by them, as per the
Greek declension of the noun)?
God is rejoicing with all of the other 'saved' people. The angels have
never been 'lost,' the saved people once were lost. God and the people
are clearly throwing a party for the person who has just been found.
You are embarrasing yourself with your total lack of knowledge of the
original. Your insulting me (the saved monkeys thing) is only a
smokescreen I refuse to dignify.
Nemesio
04 Mar 05
Originally posted by NemesioYou are forgetting that God is three forms. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Tell me why I should believe the Father is rejoicing with saved dead people rather than with the other parts of Himself.
Ok. Let's review, again.
1) A woman finds her lost coin and then goes and rejoices with
her friends.
2) There is rejoicing in heaven over a repentent sinner.
Jesus is setting up an analogue here (introduced with the word 'outos'
meaning 'thus' or 'in the same way' or 'just so'😉.
The woman (and shepherd in the previous example) are re ...[text shortened]... r insulting me (the saved monkeys thing) is only a
smokescreen I refuse to dignify.
Nemesio
We know for a fact God is before the angels. Saved dead people is pure conjecture on your part. In fact, I still think it might be the angels, and the Greeks just wrote 'before the messengers' because that's how they wrote stuff. I see no mention in Scripture directly of dead people in Heaven until Jesus' 2nd coming. Oh, and the ones who rose at His death, but Mary wasn't dead. And it says nowhere that they can hear a word we say.
04 Mar 05
Originally posted by Darfius
You are forgetting that God is three forms. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Tell me why I should believe the Father is rejoicing with saved dead people rather than with the other parts of Himself.
I am not forgetting the Doctrine of the Trinity (which is another post-Biblical
conjecture, but that is another thread). God is One Being in Three Parts. God
is not a 'Them,' God is a 'It,' or 'Him,' if you prefer. For example, this sentence
makes no sense: 'God are good,' because God is singular, One Being, Three Parts.
That is the Doctrine of the Trinity since about the 2nd century.
So, the shepherd or woman doesn't represent 'the Father,' but God (you will
notice that Jesus doesn't make reference to 'the Father,' but God in the
entire chapter (one of my favorite in St Luke). So, someone is rejoicing
with God, and it's not the angels. (Using the argument of the Trinity is
an anachronism in any event, but even if it weren't, the idea that 'God is
rejoicing with Himself and before Himself is just ludicrous linguistic backflips.)
We know for a fact God is before the angels. Saved dead people is pure conjecture on your part. In fact, I still think it might be the angels, and the Greeks just wrote 'before the messengers' because that's how they wrote stuff.
Well, you can 'think' what you want, but it has no basis in Greek.
Yes, 'saved dead people' is a conjecture, but it is supported by this
passage of the Bible. Your arguments against the Greek is absurd.
Your claim is less well supported than mine.
And, since neither claim is definitive, one cannot conclude that asking
Mary to pray for oneself or another is a sin or even a waste of time.
I see no mention in Scripture directly of dead people in Heaven until Jesus' 2nd coming. Oh, and the ones who rose at His death, but Mary wasn't dead. And it says nowhere that they can hear a word we say.
Could you perhaps start a thread on where you think dead people are
until Jesus's second coming? A Scriptural reference would be very
helpful.
I don't understand your point about Mary not being dead. We don't
know when she died (or if, according to the liturgical churches who
believe that she was assumed into heaven), but that she was present
at the Crucifixion. I don't see your point, but it is irrelevant anyway.
Mary is there now, by all Christian accounts.
Nemesio
04 Mar 05
Originally posted by DarfiusDamn Darfius. Sure you're not trying to become a dictionary major?
I understand it great, I just didn't know which Testament it was from. The argument still stands, you are putting YOUR interpretation of what it says into it. Where does it say anything about anyone but angels and God? Where are you getting saved humans from? Let's put it into context:
I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one si ...[text shortened]... lse with the angels? I see that saying there was joy in the [b]bearing of the angels.
[/b]