Originally posted by DarfiusOne of your biggest supporters in these threads has been Ivanhoe. He is a well known Roman Catholic. So you think Ivanhoe belongs to a cult? Does this mean you spurn any aid he gives to you in these forums?
Excellent question. Their blatant disregard for the Word of God in preference of the word of men is the culprit.
They worship Mary. God says "Thou shalt have no other god before me."
They call their priests father, which is in direct conflict with:
(Mat 23:9) "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heave ...[text shortened]... . [b]They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.’”
[/b]
Originally posted by NemesioTrue, I got a forum for spritituality, but in this thread I asked people not to debate but to tell why they feel that their religion is the "true" religion. When it became a debate I asked that they not debate, but rather just stick to the spirit of the thread. I was not asking nor offering critique. Wulebgr's post on his agnostisism was exactly what I was looking for. Rather than telling everyone why their religion was wrong, a quick post of why you believe what you believe. I even went as far as to explain it again. However, Darfius refused to stick to the spirit of the thread. Not every thread has to be a debate. Not all discussions are debates, some are discourses. I was hoping for a true discourse on why you believe what you believe. While my expletive infused rant was not in the spirit of thread it did feel pretty good at the moment.
Cliff, your anger with Darfius is unjust. I'd ask that you desist.
He has a forum for the expression of his ideas. You got what
you want. Why do you come here and torture yourself?
Nemesio
I am sorry if I have offended anyone, except Darfius of course.
Originally posted by RBHILLTrue, Mary cannot answer prayers.
Mary can not answer Prayers, only God can. And if someone asks Mary don't you think that God would hear it and not need to be told what the person asked for by Mary?
If I ask you to pray for me, don't you think God heard it?
Why can't Mary pray for me, too? Why is this a problem? Is there
a monopoly on who can and cannot pray for someone?
Do you think that asking your dead great-grandfather in heaven to
pray for you is somehow heretical?
Nemesio
Originally posted by RBHILLThere are two types of prayer: worshipful prayer, which is reserved only
Indeed true. I had to sit in with my mom in the Catholic Church about 3 weeks ago and they did indeed encourage praying to Mary.
for God, and the kind where you kneel down and talk to people in
heaven.
Find me a place in the Bible where asking for dead people to pray for
you is a sin.
Nemesio
Originally posted by RBHILLShe is most certainly NOT another human 'like us.' She is the bearer
Mary is just another human like us, and she is probably praising God just like all the other saved people are doing in heaven.
of the Christ child.
Confer with St Luke 1:28
And coming to her, [Gabriel] said, 'Hail, favored one!...
How many other people can make this claim, to have been the
favored one of God? Not many.
Confer with St Luke 1:42
[Elizabeth] cried out in a loud voice and said, 'Most blessed are
you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.'
Are you saying that this Scripture is incorrect?
Confer St Luke 1:45-55, specifically:
48: For He has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness; behold,
from now on will all ages call me blessed.
She is hardly an ordinary person to be 'most blessed among women'
and the person whom 'all ages will call blessed.'
She is not just like you, RBHILL, if you are a true Christian and accept
these Scriptures as the Word of God.
Nemesio
Originally posted by Nemesio"So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse." 1st Chronicles 1-:13-14
Are you saying that no one in heaven can hear prayers except
the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?
What is your Biblical support for this claim?
Nemesio
"But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. " Matthew 6:6-7
Both Catholics (repeating the Rosary to Mary dozens of times) nor Muslims (repeating the Koran countless times) follow this order from Jesus Himself. What does that mean? Cults. And Jesus clearly tells us to pray to the Father directly, THROUGH Jesus (next verse in Matthew). Why, if we can pray to the only omnipresent, omniscient, omnipowerful being in all of existence, would we prefer to pray to Mary or another saint? The answer is simple. It's so we can please Satan by desecrating ourselves before God.
Originally posted by NemesioWho says dead people are in Heaven, they are more alive then we are.
There are two types of prayer: worshipful prayer, which is reserved only
for God, and the kind where you kneel down and talk to people in
heaven.
Find me a place in the Bible where asking for dead people to pray for
you is a sin.
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioWhy would I want to ask a dead relative, when I can go to Jesus.
True, Mary cannot answer prayers.
If I ask you to pray for me, don't you think God heard it?
Why can't Mary pray for me, too? Why is this a problem? Is there
a monopoly on who can and cannot pray for someone?
Do you think that asking your dead great-grandfather in heaven to
pray for you is somehow heretical?
Nemesio
Originally posted by Darfius
"So Saul died for [b]his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse." 1st Chronicles 1-:13-14[/b]
Where does it say that only God hears you when you pray?
Where does it say that you cannot speak to dead people?
No where.
"But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, [b]pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. " Matthew 6:6-7[/b]
I agree, one should only pray to the Father. One should not pray to Mary.
However, I do not see how asking Mary to pray for you is against the Bible;
certainly this passage doesn't say that.
Do you want to try again, since these Scriptures do not forbid asking for
intercession? How is asking for you to pray for me different than asking
Mary to pray for me?
Both Catholics (repeating the Rosary to Mary dozens of times) nor Muslims (repeating the Koran countless times) follow this order from Jesus Himself.
There is no such thing as 'Rosary to Mary.' This does not exist except in
your mind.
And, the Scripture does not say 'vain repetions.'
St Matthew 6:7 reads:
Proseuchomenoi de me battalogesete osper oi ethnikoi,
Praying but not you might babble as indeed the nations (Gentiles),
dokousin gar oti en te polulogia auton eisakousthesontai.
they think for that in the much word of them they will be heard thoroughly.
In other words, 'When you are praying, do not heap up empty praises
as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard because of their
many words.'
This passage (and all the ones around it) are about hypocrisy.
If a person prays the same prayer a billion times, and means it a billion times,
that person is justified; if a person says a prayer twice, simply because he feels
that God will pay more attention to him by repeating, he is a hypocrite.
You are misapplying Scripture; surely that is a sin.
And Jesus clearly tells us to pray to the Father directly, THROUGH Jesus (next verse in Matthew).
The RCC agrees with this.
Why, if we can pray to the only omnipresent, omniscient, omnipowerful being in all of existence, would we prefer to pray to Mary or another saint? The answer is simple. It's so we can please Satan by desecrating ourselves before God.
If asking Mary to pray for you is a sin, then so is asking me to pray for you.
There is no prohibition ANYWHERE in the Bible saying that asking dead people
to pray for you is a sin. That you think it is a sin is the product of your fertile
imagination and bigotry towards the Roman Church.
Nemesio
Originally posted by RBHILLWhy ask a live relative or a friend or a stranger when you can go
Why would I want to ask a dead relative, when I can go to Jesus.
to Jesus?
If Jesus is the trump card, then why do you bother praying for
Darfius?
How is asking a dead relative to pray for you different than asking
a live relative?
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioThe live relative is right there with you or on the phone.
Why ask a live relative or a friend or a stranger when you can go
to Jesus?
If Jesus is the trump card, then why do you bother praying for
Darfius?
How is asking a dead relative to pray for you different than asking
a live relative?
Nemesio
A dead relative is in Heaven or Hell. Just as Luke 16 says.
Originally posted by DarfiusI never said that they were omnipresent. I simply am suggesting that
Where is your Biblical support that when we die we become omnipresent?
there is no reason to believe that they cannot see or hear us if they
choose. I am not saying they do, but there is no Biblical evidence to
say they don't.
Similarly, I see no reason why a Christian would claim that dead people
cannot pray for us, since, too, there is no prohibition against this.
Nemesio
Originally posted by RBHILLSo what? Why is being on the phone mean that the prayers
The live relative is right there with you or on the phone.
A dead relative is in Heaven or Hell. Just as Luke 16 says.
count more? A person who is alive might pray sinfully, a person
in heaven cannot sin and would pray properly.
Nemesio