Spirituality
11 Jul 11
25 Jul 11
Originally posted by FMFKinda.
So you're saying it's not actually you who's observing me to be deceived/influenced by "Satan" but instead it's someone else telling you it is so, or perhaps something someone has claimed about me before, and then you are passing unsubstantiated assertion off as your own "observation"? Your's seems a highly convoluted kind of misanthropy, surely?
I'm saying we know anything because all there is to know comes from without. After we gather what is observed through the physical senses, and coalesce the information into a meaningful reality, there will always be more to add, so that we are continuously modifying what we perceive to be the truth of it all.
For example: The question is raised, "how did all of this get here"? We then apply the sum total of our knowledge, which was gathered from "all of this", and make a judgement as to the cause for "all of this" that exists.
I believe you have the same information available to you as I do to make the call.
Deception isn't a mystery. It's a lie. Objectively speaking. Deception exists. Unequivocally. It's the difference between the truth and the lie. Daily we reach deep inside, trusting in our inherent ability to judge and make choices to come as close to the truth as we can.
Some flaws are so fundamental, that to err results in death. Other things are not so important, and we learn from our mistakes and make better decisions next time.
Deception isn't an object to be seen or felt or perceived through the senses. Deception requires a deceiver. A horrifying concept if such a being exists that is intent on the destruction of life.
But we see the destruction of life everywhere everyday, and we see life flourishing as well. We live in a world of contrasts. Without contrast nothing would be perceivable.
25 Jul 11
1 edit
Originally posted by josephwWhy is it that Christians like you and RJHinds so often feel the need to accuse people whose spirituality is different from yours of being "Satan" or "doing Satan's work" or being "Satanic" or being "influenced by Satan" or being "deceived by Satan"?
Kinda.
I'm saying we know anything because all there is to know comes from without. After we gather what is observed through the physical senses, and coalesce the information into a meaningful reality, there will always be more to add, so that we are continuously modifying what we perceive to be the truth of it all.
For example: The question is raised, well. We live in a world of contrasts. Without contrast nothing would be perceivable.
Daily we reach deep inside, trusting in our inherent ability to judge and make choices to come as close to the truth as we can.
You seem incapable of understanding that people can do this and not end up with the same spiritual map as you.
25 Jul 11
1 edit
Originally posted by FMF"Why is it that Christians like you and RJHinds so often feel the need to accuse people whose spirituality is different from yours of being "Satan" or "doing Satan's work" or being "Satanic" or being "influenced by Satan" or being "deceived by Satan"?"
Why is it that Christians like you and RJHinds so often feel the need to accuse people whose spirituality is different from yours of being "Satan" or "doing Satan's work" or being "Satanic" or being "influenced by Satan" or being "deceived by Satan"?
[b]Daily we reach deep inside, trusting in our inherent ability to judge and make choices to come as close to ...[text shortened]... erstanding that people can do this and not end up with the same spiritual map as you.
Please don't accuse me of accusing you or anyone else of being Satanically motivated. This is the truth; Christians are instructed, by God, NOT to judge unbelievers. But we are also told that the god of this world "hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." We can discuss these things without insulting the intelligence of the other. Even if we don't think that believing or not is intelligent. You are a fellow human being. Why should I judge you for not believing, or assign reason for your unbelief as a result of the influence of forces hell bent on your destruction? Even though I understand that to be true?
My motive is driven by the "love of Christ" for your good. Why would I try to do or say anything that might turn you away? Please don't equate the evil done in the name of God in this world with someone who knows and understands the heart of God. The fact that evil is done in the name of God can only be attributed to God's adversary and those under His influence. Would you do evil? Don't think so. I don't even know you. I think you're a family man who loves his wife and children. So do I.
No. I will not accuse you. If the knowledge of God should become yours, then, by reason of logical objective debate, I submit that you will discover that God's enemy held it from you. That's as near to a Biblical explanation I can give without offending you, and yet not being true to my faith.
"You seem incapable of understanding that people can do this and not end up with the same spiritual map as you."
No, I understand that. I know that you understand the concepts and can negotiate your way through the abstracts as well if not better than I. But there seems to be, that thing, that prevents a connection between you and the one that made you. At least from my perspective it appears that way.
I say I know God, and do so because of His Christ. We are at variance, and it is disconcerting as hell to me that we are. I don't understand it. I see the Creators hand print on all creation, but you don't. I have absolute assurance of eternal life, and you think I must be delusional. It's no fun for me, as I am sure it isn't for you either.
I'm willing to engage in any debate at any time with anyone who can prove there is no God, and/or I'm delusional for believing there is.
And I promise not to call you stupid unless you call me stupid first. 😉 I'm not too good at turning the other cheek. 😞
25 Jul 11
Originally posted by josephwWell then, if you'd stop chomping on your bromide fortune cookies for a moment, perhaps you could take heed of the dialogue that you barged in on and whom you appear to be covering for with your platitudes.
Please don't accuse me of accusing you or anyone else of being Satanically motivated. This is the truth; Christians are instructed, by God, NOT to judge unbelievers.
25 Jul 11
Originally posted by FMFSorry. Thought I was talking to a human being. I hadn't realised how high up the evolutionary scale you were. Sorry for dragging you down into the muck.
Well then, if you'd stop chomping on your bromide fortune cookies for a moment, perhaps you could take heed of the dialogue that you barged in on and whom you appear to be covering for with your platitudes.
25 Jul 11
Originally posted by josephwRJHinds has been accusing me of being deceived and influenced by "Satan". Have the decency to actually read the thread and what has been said before you instinctively coming to his rescue.
Sorry. Thought I was talking to a human being. I hadn't realised how high up the evolutionary scale you were. Sorry for dragging you down into the muck.
25 Jul 11
Originally posted by FMFI don't care about your exchange with RJHinds. I started replying to you in a whole new context between you and I.
RJHinds has been accusing me of being deceived and influenced by "Satan". Have the decency to actually read the thread and what has been said before you instinctively coming to his rescue.
If nothing I said means anything to you, then so be it, but please refrain from belittling me. I said nothing to provoke you. Why the sudden turn? I thought we were talking about something you and I could discuss in some rational way.
I guess I was wrong.
25 Jul 11
Originally posted by josephwRJHinds was saying I was being deceived by "Satan", and I denied it, you asserted that I wouldn't know even if I was. Take some responsibility for what you post.
I don't care about your exchange with RJHinds. I started replying to you in a whole new context between you and I.
If nothing I said means anything to you, then so be it, but please refrain from belittling me. I said nothing to provoke you. Why the sudden turn? I thought we were talking about something you and I could discuss in some rational way.
I guess I was wrong.
26 Jul 11
Originally posted by FMFBe specific will ya?
RJHinds was saying I was being deceived by "Satan", and I denied it, you asserted that I wouldn't know even if I was. Take some responsibility for what you post.
Do you remember me saying that the deceived don't know their being deceived?
Why didn't you say something a when I first said it? It is only logical that a deceived person doesn't know they're being deceived. Why else call it deception? I made that statement not as an accusation, but as an objective observation. Whether I believe you are deceived or not isn't for me to say. But to be honest with you I said I believed it to be true based on my beliefs. But it is not being said as an accusation. You yourself believe I'm delusional. I'm not taking it personal. We're trying to have a debate. An honest, open discussion between to supposedly rational human beings.
Stop thinking I think I'm better than you.
26 Jul 11
Originally posted by josephwLook, you intervened in the dialogue seemingly to back RJHinds' assertions about "Satanism". Why else did you go off half cock about whether or not he was right to accuse me of being "deceived". If you - like he does - think I am deceived or influenced by "Satan" just say so. If you don't, just say so. Your apparent need to cover for RJHinds with a shower of trite assertions about me, yourself and everything, is transparent and disingenuous.
Do you remember me saying that the deceived don't know their being deceived?
26 Jul 11
Originally posted by FMFYou're erecting walls. Surely you see that.
Look, you intervened in the dialogue seemingly to back RJHinds' assertions about "Satanism". Why else did you go off half cock about whether or not he was right to accuse me of being "deceived". If you - like he does - think I am deceived or influenced by "Satan" just say so. If you don't, just say so. Your apparent need to cover for RJHinds with a shower of trite assertions about me, yourself and everything, is transparent and disingenuous.
I made my belief about deception perfectly clear. Did you not read my posts? And there is nothing disingenuous about me. I'm getting the impression you're intent on disintegrating this discussion.
"...shower of trite assertions about (you),.."
You didn't read my posts. I'm offended.
26 Jul 11
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Originally posted by josephwAre the three of us discussing whether RJHinds is influenced or deceived by "Satan"? No, we aren't. Are the three of us discussing whether you - josephw - are influenced or deceived by "Satan"? No, we are not. It seems the topic is whether I am influenced by "Satan"... all because I have a different spiritual map from you two Christians. That you should try to accuse me of "erecting walls" is laughable. You and RJHinds are probably the two most alienating and wall-building Christians on this site. One wonders if you will try to pass this observation off as the result of "Satanic influence", or whether you can recognize it as a comment made in good faith.
You're erecting walls. Surely you see that.
26 Jul 11
1 edit
Originally posted by avalanchethecatI have absolutely no desire to divest josephw and RJHinds of their beliefs (same was true with Dasa who I think is almost indistinguishable - "spiritually" and intellectually from josephw and RJHinds). So I have no interest in what psychological 'relationship' they happen to have or don't have with one of the figures from their theological folklore.
Just to muddy the waters even further, who's to say that it's not JosephW and RJHinds who are the subject of satan's deception? It seems to me that if some demon wanted to create merry havoc on earth, he'd be pretty pleased with himself if he'd come up with the concept of christianity.
What does interest me though is how they deploy this "Satan" figure in handling difference or dissent. I am well aware that "Satan" is the most evil figure in their folk tales and other religionist literature. So accusing those whose spiritual map is different from theirs of being "Satan" or "doing Satan's work" or being "Satanic" or being "influenced by Satan" or being "deceived by Satan", is more or less the most vitriolic condemnation and unkindest 'insult' they can muster to throw at someone, at least in the context of their own terms of reference. I am only too aware of this, as are a lot of onlookers here, undoubtedly. The fact that josephw pointedly did not distance himself from RJHinds' contentions is also starkly clear.
While not seeking to persuade them to change their beliefs, I will state that what they seem to do with this "Satan" figure strikes me as not being a genuinely spiritual stance at all and instead a kind of willful mundanity, typical human nature, lashing out at the "other" as 'hurtfully' as they can, declaring themselves to have a monopoly on the 'truth' and declaring dissenters to be sick or evil or or dishonest or perverted in some way.
What kind of so-called spirituality is this Go Directly To The Ultimate Insult, Do Not Pass Go approach? Well I don't think it is any kind of spirituality at all. It is - instead - prosaic, them-and-us-esque, small mindedness and misanthropy. Don't Christians like josephw and RJHinds ever take a step back and read and reflect upon the ungodly ugliness they hurl at other people on this forum?
26 Jul 11
Originally posted by FMFNail on the head. Where's the love, understanding and humility that they're supposed to show their 'enemies', I often wonder?
I have absolutely no desire to divest josephw and RJHinds of their beliefs (same was true with Dasa who I think is almost indistinguishable - "spiritually" and intellectually from josephw and RJHinds). So I have no interest in what psychological 'relationship' they happen to have or don't have with one of the figures from their theological folklore.
What doe ...[text shortened]... i]ungodly[/i] ugliness they hurl at other people on this forum?