23 Jul 07
2 edits
Originally posted by josephwYou forgot the simplest explanation. If God can do anything what is there to explain? 😀
Much more complicated.
God is infinite, man is finite.
God is Spirit, man is temporal.
God is omniscient, man is a blithering idiot.
Won't you give an explanation of the comparison of your own?
23 Jul 07
Originally posted by josephwJust like to stir the cauldron, and to mess with you! 😀
Yes, something went wrong. But it wasn't God's doing.
I'm curious. You're an atheist. You reject the bible story as just fiction. Why do you even argue about it? What's more, why do I argue about it if I know we'll get nowhere? This is nuts!
23 Jul 07
Originally posted by telerionGod is just. You have a problem with that?
It's axiomatic with these kinds of believers that any action taken by their god is just. They will concoct wild justifications to convince a skeptic that this is so. When they run out of ideas, they retreat to the "unknown purposes defense" (UPD). There's some very good reason for him conspiring with Satan to kill Job's family or with
The UPD is clos ...[text shortened]... nearly all interest in this subject about six months ago. It's been refreshing really.
23 Jul 07
Originally posted by rwingettThat's especially damning when combined with perfect foresight. I mean one could possibly excuse Yahweh if he'd just overlooked a slight technicality.
If god created man in a "perfect form and state" then nothing could go wrong. The fact that something went wrong means man was not perfect. The design was inherently flawed, which reflects badly upon the designer. Your god is either an incompetent designer who could do no better, or a capricious one who delights in chaos.
23 Jul 07
Originally posted by josephwIt's in our natures.
Yes, something went wrong. But it wasn't God's doing.
I'm curious. You're an atheist. You reject the bible story as just fiction. Why do you even argue about it? What's more, why do I argue about it if I know we'll get nowhere? This is nuts!
We're all entirely convinced by the rightness of our positions and want to convince others.
Nothing to be done other than get the gloves off and keep going ...
23 Jul 07
3 edits
Originally posted by josephwYou are correct! To be fair God judged "wickedness". Granted, he judged them in many cases severly. Perhaps the objection is not so much that he judged wickedness, but that he judged it so severly. In fact, if he did not a judge of those who are wicked, he could be considered an unjust God.
God is just. You have a problem with that?
It is easy sitting back an judging others in hind sight. You begin to second guess those you sit in judgement over and begin to say things like, "Well you could have done this or you should have done that". However, if one were put in the same situation could they have performed as well or even at all? Would things have become progressivly worse? I believe God did what was needed to bring the Messiah into the world so that he could usher in the era of grace. Both the OT and NT agree that sin is the issue. The only difference is, is that now we have a better way to deal with sin. Now one must not destroy the sinner to destroy the sin because of Christ's sacrifice for us.
One thing is certain, however, if the God of the Bible exists, he is very, very, very longsuffering. For example, just look at all of those on this site who mock him and blaspheme against him. Look at all of the wickedness in the world today even, yet God allows such things to occur.......that is, he allows it to a point. When you cross the line, however, God help you.
23 Jul 07
Originally posted by josephwYou're right. I don't get why an omniscient omnipotent being had to kill innocents.
As smart as you are, you either don't get it at all, or you do, and simply argue your case because you are an atheist.
Do you think Pharaoh would have let God's people go if God had asked nicely?
And by definition an omniscient God doesn't make mistakes.
Don't you think that maybe you are wrong.
Do you think Pharaoh would have let God's people go if God had asked nicely?
Yes. This is God. Do you think the Pharaoh could stand against God? Do you think the Pharaoh wasn't only doing what God deigned he would?
Do you understand the meaning of the word omniscient? I sometimes wonder.
23 Jul 07
Originally posted by whodeyHere's a scenario ...
You are correct! To be fair God judged "wickedness". Granted, he judged them in many cases severly. Perhaps the objection is not so much that he judged wickedness, but that he judged it so severly. In fact, if he did not a judge of those who are wicked, he could be considered an unjust God.
It is easy sitting back an judging others in hind sight. You ...[text shortened]... ur.......that is, he allows it to a point. When you cross the line, however, God help you.
I, or my ancestors, have committed a series of violent and brutal acts - killing off the people of a town, village, city, etc.
Now, in the way of all people, I have an innate need to describe and explain and rationalise these acts.
Here are two possibilities:
1. I could come clean and explain that through a rash sense of nationalism or xenophobia or whatever, I decided that these people should be killed.
2. I could hide my guilt by describing the evil nature of the people I'd killed and explaining why it was that their deaths were required.
(Think Rwanda if you want a recent example.)
Now of course, I could ascribe my reasons in the second example to a supernatural god if this was a part of the belief system of my culture. What better way to justify my acts than to pin them on this god.
My point in describing this scenario?
I think our attempts to rationalise and understand god's motives are misguided and misplaced. God didn't do any of this stuff; god didn't sanction it; god didn't require it.
We humans have done these things and are trying to lay the blame off on something else to assuage our guilt.
23 Jul 07
Originally posted by scottishinnzSo if God chose to give us free will, must he then work with that free will in order to bring about his perfect will?
You're right. I don't get why an omniscient omnipotent being had to kill innocents.
[b]Do you think Pharaoh would have let God's people go if God had asked nicely?
Yes. This is God. Do you think the Pharaoh could stand against God? Do you think the Pharaoh wasn't only doing what God deigned he would?
Do you understand the meaning of the word omniscient? I sometimes wonder.[/b]
23 Jul 07
1 edit
Originally posted by amannionYou could ascribe your reasons to God and, in fact, it is being done today. Just look at the radical Islamists who want to reinact the holocaust by destroying Israel. However, my guess is that they are lying their @#$@@# off.
Here's a scenario ...
I, or my ancestors, have committed a series of violent and brutal acts - killing off the people of a town, village, city, etc.
Now, in the way of all people, I have an innate need to describe and explain and rationalise these acts.
Here are two possibilities:
1. I could come clean and explain that through a rash sense of national e these things and are trying to lay the blame off on something else to assuage our guilt.
It is my belief that God cleared a path, so to speak, for the Messiah to come into the world. He worked with a man who then gave birth to a nation who then produced the Messiah for which all of mankind could be saved. It was a hard road to hoe, and brutal, and violent, however, it was a spiritual battle in nature and it had to be done in order to bring about the Messiah while at the same time working with the free will of men that God chose to give us. In fact, we are still at war and the battle continues to be brutle and harsh etc, etc.
23 Jul 07
In fairness to Dawkins (from whom the passage is taken), while he agrees with its content, he wrote it with a bit of comedy in mind. I've heard him recite it in a public reading of the book. He usually leads with it, and it comes off really well. Very funny. It's humor is heightened when a few fundamentalist professors from the late Jerry Falwell's university show up . Their intense agitation's made comically visible in their nervous fidget, but Dawkins is so brilliant and witty that they do not dare raise their voice in dissent lest the inferiority of their own education be brought to light in the reception hall of a real institution of higher learning.
23 Jul 07
1 edit
Originally posted by scottishinnzWe are talking about God, correct? The same God if you take
What about killing the first-born. What had they done to deserve it?
scripture as is, setup the universe which includes all the laws of
nature and physics as well. All will die, the full human race is
under bondage of sin and death and no one however young is
immune to death, be they 1 hour or 80 years old, none of us is
promised tomorrow you are acting as if God owes you or others
time within this life time, you are not promised anything so why
are you accusing God of mistreating anyone if their time is cut
short? If a man who did not setup the universe did that killing
we could complain since no man has given us life in the first
place let alone setup the life expectancy of all life too.
Kelly
23 Jul 07
1 edit
Originally posted by scottishinnzPerhaps ordering the first born of the Israelites killed first? What did they do to deserve that? Does'nt anyone here recall why Moses was set adrift in a basket? Hello?
What about killing the first-born. What had they done to deserve it?