The Father is greater than I

@sonship said

The four living creatures representing all created life said "AMEN".
And the twenty four elders representing the oldest and most elder of God's created beings in the universe fell down and worshipped.


"And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and worshipped." (v.14)

Who was it that was worshipped. Read Revelation 4, 5 and 6.

READ the bible instead of guessing and promoting false teachings.

@rajk999 said
Who was it that was worshipped. Read Revelation 4, 5 and 6.

READ the bible instead of guessing and promoting false teachings.

Sonship is afraid to answer. God was worshipped. Not Jesus. God sat on the throne and they worshipped God. Here is what Revelation says

And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. (Revelation 4:2 KJV)

The Elders worshipped him who sat on the throne
And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. (Revelation 4:9-11 KJV)

The one on the throne had a book in his hand
And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. (Revelation 5:1 KJV)

Jesus came and took the book
And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. (Revelation 5:7 KJV)

Summary -
One sat on the throne, who lives for ever and ever - GOD
There was a book in his right hand and No man could open the book
The Lamb of God [Jesus] only could open the book
The Lamb came and took the book from the ONE that sat on the throne

The Lamb and the ONE on the Throne are two different entities The Lamb took the book from God
The Lamb is Jesus Christ.
The ONE on the Throne that lives for ever and ever and is worshipped is God Almighty

@sonship said
Tell us how Jesus saying "The Father is greater than I" means we should not totally worship Jesus.

Here are two places where Jesus said the Father was greater than He:

"My Father , who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and the Father are one." (John 10:29,30)
...[text shortened]... you would rejoice because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)

The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

In The Encyclopedia Americana we read: “Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”—(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.

According to the Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel, “The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s [Plato, fourth century B.C.E.] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions.”—(Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467.

John L. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: “The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of ‘person’ and ‘nature’ which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as ‘essence’ and ‘substance’ were erroneously applied to God by some theologians.”—(New York, 1965), p. 899. WTS under the word "Trinity"

Let us compare some passages concerning worship of God in Revelation.

Rev. 4:8
"And the four living creatures, . . . are full of eyes around and within; and they have no rest day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God the Almighty,
Who was
and who is
and who is coming."

This is the worship of beings full of witnessing eyes as if they are witnesses to the whole economy of God. Day and night they worship Him who lives forever and ever.

First I would draw attention to the fact that "the Lord God the Almighty who was and who is and who is coming IS THE SAME Almighty who comes on the clouds as the PIERCED one over whom the tribes of the land of Israel will wail and mourn.

Please compare:

Rev. 1:7,8
"Behold, He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him [SEE Zechariah 12:10] ; and all the tribes of the land will mourn over Him. Yes, amen.

I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God,
He who is
and who was
and who is coming,
the Almighty" (Rev. 1:7,8)

"[T]he Lord God the ALMIGHTY who was and who is and who is coming" (Revelation 4:8} is the same God who is the "Lord God, He who is and who was and who is coming, the ALMIGHTY" of (Revelation 1:8)

This is the Triune God.
He is seen as the Creator of the universe on the throne in chapter 4,5.
He is seen coming on the clouds of Heaven to the mourning of the tribes of Israel
in chapter 1.

Will Rajk999 say that this God is worshipped in chapter four but is not worshipped in chapter one? This will not work if proposed because Hebrews says all the angels of God will worship the Firstborn Son when He comes again into the inhabited earth.

Oh the sheer sweetness of the Triune God!
Praise Him.

" . . . I will be to Him a Father, and He will be a Son to Me . . . And when He brings again the Firstborn into the inhabited earth, He says, And let all the angels of God worship Him." (Hebrews 1:5b-6)

@sonship said
Let us compare some passages concerning worship of God in Revelation.

Rev. 4:8
"And the four living creatures, . . . are full of eyes around and within; and they have no rest day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God the Almighty,
Who was
and who is
and who is coming."

This is the worship of beings full of witnessing eyes as if the ...[text shortened]... nto the inhabited earth, He says, And let all the angels of God worship Him." (Hebrews 1:5b-6) [/b]

In the Revelation chap 4 and 5, the word 'worship appears ONCE, and it is in connection with the ONE who sits on the throne. This is GOD. The Lamb / Christ is not described as being worshiped in those chapters, which is your initial claim. You need to stop the boldfaced lies.

The Lamb comes and takes the book from God. They are clearly TWO SEPARATE AND DISTINCT ENTITIES. Do not add to what the bible says.

@divegeester said
Tell me / they / him / he …

How is Jesus in the highest place with the name that is above ALL names
Philippians 2:9

@sonship

As usual, you aren’t really interested in discussion, just blogging your opinion which is very probably largely lifted from elsewhere in your church organisation.

@divegeester

You're a silly minded fool to think a lover of God's word could not put two and two together and derive a good interpretation without checking with organizational higher ups of your imagination.

You are a silly little fool to want to blame organizational structures for every instance when a lover of the word of God uses his own study before God to cut straight the word of God with precision.

Since the last ump-teen criticism you have leveled at me have all been sorry excuses for flimsy red herrings, maybe you should just realize that you're out of your league and its over your head to do sound Bible interpretation.

Or go anoint another Mr. Kryptonite with a winning hand of cards guy to flatter forward in hope that they'll do what you've been unable for a decade to do.

@Rajk999

The Lamb comes and takes the book from God. They are clearly TWO SEPARATE AND DISTINCT ENTITIES. Do not add to what the bible says.

Two distinct yet not separated identities is how I would put it.

Your last post did nothing to refute that the Almighty God coming on the clouds is the same Almighty God on the throne. I don't expect you have a handy refutation of that obvious fact.

I'll go on to compare the worship of Rev. 4 with that in Rev. 5.

Christ is the Lamb of God. And though the Lamb of God said "the Father is greater than I" the worship rendered in Revelation five is to -

"Him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb" (Rev. 5:13)

"And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and WORSHIPPED." (v.14)

In chapter four the same elders fall down and WORSHIP before God the Creator.

"The twenty four elders will fall before Him who sits upon the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever . . . " (4:9)

In chapter five they fall down and WORSHIP before "Him [God] who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb."

"And the elders fell down and worshipped." (5:14)

This Lamb is the one who said "the Father is greater than I".
The elders who fell down before the Creator in chapter four fall down before the
Lamb in chapter five.

Compare please:
chapter four - "The twenty four elders will fall down before Him who sits upon the throne and worship Him . . . " (4:10)

chapter five - And when He took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each having a harp and golden bowls of incense, which bowls are the prayers of the saints. " (5:8 RcV)

But there is further proof that this is the Triune God who is being worshipped.

@sonship said
@Rajk999

The Lamb comes and takes the book from God. They are clearly TWO SEPARATE AND DISTINCT ENTITIES. Do not add to what the bible says.

Two distinct yet not separated identities is how I would put it.

Your last post did nothing to refute that the Almighty God coming on the clouds is the same Almighty God on the throne. I don't expect you h ...[text shortened]... ion of that obvious fact.

I'll go on to compare the worship of Rev. 4 with that in Rev. 5.

In Rev 4 and 5, there is ONE on the throne and that is God. The Lamb / Jesus was not sitting on any throne neither was he worshipped, according to that passage. Your post which said that was the case was designed to mislead people and that shows your ignorance and deceitfulness.

Who said Im going to try to refute everything you post. The few times when I have investigated questionable references and doctrines you come up wanting. Readers should be wary of your type.

@Rajk999

In chapter 5 you have God the Creator upon the throne.
You are right that there is always only one throne.

In chapter 22 it is "the [singular] throne of God and of the Lamb" (See Revelation 22:1)

And how is the relationship expressed?
God is IN the Lamb.

For God is the LIGHT and the Lamb is the LAMP.
As the LIGHT shines forth from the LAMP on the one throne of God and of the Lamb God lives in the Lamb.

"And night will be no more; and they have no need of the light of a lamp or of the light of the sun, for the Lord God will shine upon them; and they will reign forever and ever." (22:5)

That tells us that God is the LIGHT.

"And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon that they should shine in it, for the glory of God illumined it, and its LAMP . . . is the Lamb." (Rev. 21:23)

God lives in the One who said "the Father is greater than I" who became dead and lives forever and ever. This One who said He is the First and the Last, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End and THE ALMIGHTY.

Why don't you go back to John 1:1, 14 and believe and thank God that the Word was with God, and WAS God, and became flesh? Just begin to thank God for the words trusting them.

@sonship said
@Rajk999

In chapter 5 you have God the Creator upon the throne.
You are right that there is always only one throne.

In chapter 22 it is "the [singular] throne of God and of the Lamb" (See Revelation 22:1)

And how is the relationship expressed?
God is IN the Lamb.

For God is the LIGHT and the Lamb is the LAMP.
As the LIG ...[text shortened]... rd was with God, and WAS God, and became flesh? Just begin to thank God for the words trusting them.

What of the ferric tumbleweeds of Mars, and the canal dwellers of Tharsis Ridge? They had neither lambs nor lamps, but was that really their fault?

What of the variety of intelligent species scattered throughout the vasty cosmos? Did the God of the Jews and their Greco-Roman splinter sects visit all those beings in the guise of some Jewish guy to threaten them all into loving The Supreme Being, that He (preferred pronoun) might return their love instead of torturing them forever?

Sincere Earthlings, all the verbiage of Earth is just minute scratches and squeaks compared to the Grand But Modest Host Who has laid out the starry banquet of the Cosmos in all its variety.

@sonship said
@divegeester
You're a silly minded fool to
You are a silly little fool

Call no man a fool. Tut tut sonship. Your curtain of self righteousness is flapping open again.

Feel free to address my post on page 1, 4th down, as soon as your anger subsides.

The so-called "whole story" is not my intention to tell.
That aspects of the story are selected to tell is appropriate.