13 Oct 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI'm seeking whether or not there is any Truth in what you have to offer. But... you aren't offering anything. Should I be surprised?
You aren't seeking Truth. How can you receive Truth if you aren't open to it.
Since you haven't noticed, I have started teaching you.
13 Oct 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneOK, since you aren't offering anything. I'll offer something:
You aren't seeking Truth. How can you receive Truth if you aren't open to it.
Since you haven't noticed, I have started teaching you.
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14:6).
13 Oct 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneThis was spoken concerning those who refused to believe that Jesus was the Son of God.
You have eyes but cannot see.
"But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him" (John 12:37-41).
But I believe that Jesus is the Son of God. On what other basis do you claim that I have eyes but cannot see?
13 Oct 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasOnce again you infer things that aren't there.
This was spoken concerning those who refused to believe that Jesus was the Son of God.
"But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could ...[text shortened]... at Jesus is the Son of God. On what other basis do you claim that I have eyes but cannot see?
13 Oct 07
1 edit
Originally posted by epiphinehasIf you'd paid attention to my posts, you'd know that I believe that Jesus is the Truth.
You said I have eyes but cannot see. What can't I see? Am I wrong to think that Jesus is the Truth?
If you really want to know what you cannot see, try going back and reading our exchange of posts since you made your request as neutrally as possible. Pay attention to what I actually say.
13 Oct 07
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneOK, I reread the posts. You're asking me what I'm seeking, and I keep telling you that I'm trying to find out if there's any truth to your claims. But I can't do that if you're not telling me anything about what your claims are.
If you'd paid attention to my posts, you'd know that I believe that Jesus is the Truth.
If you really want to know what you cannot see, try going back and reading our exchange of posts since you made your request as neutrally as possible. Pay attention to what I actually say.
Like I said, be clear and concise so I don't misunderstand you.
So far you have only revealed that you believe that Jesus is the Truth. This is a good start. I believe the same. That is confirmed by scripture. However, the average Christian believes this as well. You claimed that you are more "enlightened" than the average Christian, so you really haven't shown me anything special yet.
EDIT: I will not allow myself to be duped by someone who claims to have "special knowledge." If anything you say doesn't line up with scripture, then I'll let you know. However, do not mistake this as me being blind to the truth (having eyes that cannot see), just because I'm not initially buying anything you have to say. If you're speaking on your own authority you're going to have a tough time convincing me you're not deluded, so it would go a long way to back up your (forthcoming) claims with scripture. Thanks.
13 Oct 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasIf youall dont mind me making comment here ... part of what TOO is saying (and me as well) is that Christ spoke at length of, and demonstrated, a lifestyle that includes :
OK, I reread the posts. You're asking me what I'm seeking, and I keep telling you that I'm trying to find out if there's any truth to your claims. But I can't do that if you're not telling me anything about what your claims are.
Like I said, be clear and concise so I don't misunderstand you.
So far you have only revealed that you believe that Jes ...[text shortened]... ld go a long way to back up your (forthcoming) claims with scripture. Thanks.
- selflessness
- charity
- love for your neighbour
- giving up of worldly pleasures
.... and certainly belief and baptism is the initial demonstration of faith, but it cannot end there, and nobody can claim to be saved before judgment day or before death. And this is where there is possibly a departure by Paul from the core teachings of Christ. I am not saying that Paul is incorrect .. just misunderstood.
13 Oct 07
Originally posted by vistesdI think that what he is saying is that the judgement only matters towards determining the extent of the rewards for the believers and the extent of the punishment for the non-believers (somewhat akin to Dante's circles of Hell).
Main Entry: kangaroo court
Function: noun
1 : a mock court in which the principles of law and justice are disregarded or perverted
2 : a court characterized by irresponsible, unauthorized, or irregular status or procedures
3 : judgment or punishment given outside of legal procedure
—Merriam-Webster’s Online Dictionary
A kangaroo court or kangaroo t ...[text shortened]... ion of the process (with or without regard to the faith-versus-works arguments that go on here).
At least that's how I read his post.
13 Oct 07
Originally posted by vistesdIn your description, the judgment has been predetermined.
Main Entry: kangaroo court
Function: noun
1 : a mock court in which the principles of law and justice are disregarded or perverted
2 : a court characterized by irresponsible, unauthorized, or irregular status or procedures
3 : judgment or punishment given outside of legal procedure
—Merriam-Webster’s Online Dictionary
A kangaroo court or kangaroo t ...[text shortened]... ion of the process (with or without regard to the faith-versus-works arguments that go on here).
God does know the end from the beginning; knew both before either existed. That He knows how everything will end up should be no surprise.
Both groups are judged for their works—but works don’t count... Justice has absolutely nothing to do with it.
I think the cart is getting before the horse here. The judgment of work is for the record, not for salvation. The judgment of work is for reward, not for punishment. In the first part, no one goes to hell on account of their work, good or evil. Some take verses in the Bible completely out of context and think that evil-doers are bound for hell on account of their deeds: they're not. The only people who go to hell are the ones who want to: consciously rejecting the gift of God, preferring to go it alone basing their stand before God on their own works--- these are the people populating hell.
In the second part, all works are judged according to the standards of God, not the standards of man. What man may consider righteous and spiritual (in many cases) God considers garbage. The ultimate detination of many 'works' from believers is fire: burned up as useless. Only what remains of the believers work is considered pure and thus, rewarded.
Back to the unbeliever, justice has everything to do with it. In the same manner that the believer's current point of reference with God is justice, His justice will be brought to the forefront and will become the point of reference for the unbeliever then, only in full force. As it stands now, the unbeliever is cut off from God owing to a lack of righteousness. The believer is in communion with God because of an imputed righteousness. The judgment of all works will demonstrate that the best of man's work still falls infinitely short of His standard. In compliance with His standard of grace, He has removed work from the issue of salvation. In compliance with His standard of justice, He Himself paid that price.
13 Oct 07
Originally posted by PalynkaWith respect to work, yes, you are reading it right.
I think that what he is saying is that the judgement only matters towards determining the extent of the rewards for the believers and the extent of the punishment for the non-believers (somewhat akin to Dante's circles of Hell).
At least that's how I read his post.
13 Oct 07
2 edits
Originally posted by epiphinehasWhen my brother was training to be a technical illustrator, he explained some of the difficulties in producing drawings that look "real". One of them was in being able to draw what the eye sees. He had to train his mind to conceptualize what was actually there. He explained that the mind already has a conception of most objects. For instance, a box is comprised of right angles. However, what the eye actually sees are not right angles.
OK, I reread the posts. You're asking me what I'm seeking, and I keep telling you that I'm trying to find out if there's any truth to your claims. But I can't do that if you're not telling me anything about what your claims are.
Like I said, be clear and concise so I don't misunderstand you.
So far you have only revealed that you believe that Jes ld go a long way to back up your (forthcoming) claims with scripture. Thanks.
You seem to have trouble seeing what is actually there. You seem to mistake conceptualizations in your mind for reality. For instance, in my discussions with you, you frequently infer meaning where there is none. You keep telling me "you said..." when I've said no such thing. This is a problem.
As another example, take your interaction with Dr. S. on the "Truth will make you free" thread. There came a point where it was evident to me that you contradicted yourself. Of course, Dr. S. quickly pointed this out to you. Now it's one thing to not be able to see a self-contradiction at the time one makes it, but it's a whole other thing to not be able to see it even after it's pointed out. This is a problem.
Now you can tell yourself that both sides are "clearly represented in scripture", but what I don't think you realize is that that "representation" is a conceptualization in your mind that doesn't neccessarily reflect reality. Dr. S. also pointed this out to you, but you seemed to dismiss it out of hand. This is a problem.
On the bright side, it's been my experience that these types of problems are usually rooted in pride which can be overcome. Scripture has quite a bit to say about pride. Maybe you should take a look.
If that isn't good enough for you, maybe you can take something away from the words of Marsellus Wallace: "...that's pride [effin] wit ya. [Eff] pride! Pride only hurts, it never helps. Fight through that [stuff]."