12 Oct 07
LATE EDIT:
Freaky, I am not accusing you of blasphemy. Nor am I arguing “works versus faith” (or vice versa, for that matter). I really find your description to be so surreal that I cannot translate it in my own head so as to make sense of it.
I can imagine a god whose holiness is really a perfectionism that is totally intolerant of any imperfection. (I can’t believe in such a god—for other reasons you well know; not just because it’s such an uncongenial concept—but I can imagine it.) I can imagine a god who is cruel. I can imagine a lot of gods. But there’s no way I can put the word “justice” on your description that matches any understanding I could come up with.
Nor is it possible to say that such a god is agape, without losing all meaning for that word (whether personal or impersonal). I have argued before that the NT God’s holiness derives from that agape, and needs to be seen through that lens (or at least the God of the author of John’s letter). To make them distinct, and then to use the former to “contextualize” the latter is to use an attribute to “contextualize” essence, rather than the other way round. The attribute is an attribute of the essence.
12 Oct 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneNo, in my post I shared the Gospel (Good News) of Christ. What is so superficial about the Gospel? You claim to have a genuine understanding of Christ's teachings, but you neglect the Good News concerning Him. Jesus said, "The kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel... Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mark 1:15, 16:15-16).
I was speaking of your post.
Actually the teachings of Jesus are quite deep and profound. It's unfortunate that Christianity seems to have turned off the path.
So what is the gospel which Christ told His disciples to share with all the world? In Christ's own words: "The Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles: and they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again" (Mark 10:33-34).
Paul, who commiserated with the disciples of Christ and who shared the same Gospel as they, which they received directly from Christ, spoke of the Gospel this way: "Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures" (1 Cor. 15:1-4). "If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" (Rom. 10:9-10).
And Philip saved a eunuch in just this manner: "Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him" (Acts 8:36-38).
Here's what Paul says about the effect of believing the Gospel of Christ:
"In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory" (Eph. 1:12-14). "In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it" (Col. 2:11-15).
And finally...
"Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?" (Rom. 8:30-32).
Again, what is so superficial about the Gospel? Please explain yourself.
12 Oct 07
1 edit
Originally posted by epiphinehasTry actually reading my previous post and answering the questions:
No, in my post I shared the Gospel (Good News) of Christ. What is so superficial about the Gospel? You claim to have a genuine understanding of Christ's teachings, but you neglect the Good News concerning Him. Jesus said, "The kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel... Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creat
Again, what is so superficial about the Gospel? Please explain yourself.
That all superficially sounds nice, but there are certain problems including the following:
Does one truly “trust” Jesus, if his teachings aren’t followed? Until they are, are you doing much more than crying 'Lord, Lord'?
At what point does one cross over from "empty profession" to something "genuine, sincere"? I have to believe that the line of demarcation is when follows the teachings of Jesus because one realizes that it's the only true way to live. What's your line of demarcation?
What glorifies God more? Following His ways or rejoicing/thanking/praising Him? Are rejoicing/thanking/praising Him anything more than superficial gestures?
And there's always the problematic Matthew 21-23. What could Jesus possibly mean. Surely, not anything so drastic as Jesus only knows those who follow Him?
Should one follow what Jesus teaches or follow a conceptualization of Jesus given by others?
12 Oct 07
2 edits
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneDoes one truly “trust” Jesus, if his teachings aren’t followed?
Try actually reading my previous post and answering the questions:
[b]That all superficially sounds nice, but there are certain problems including the following:
Does one truly “trust” Jesus, if his teachings aren’t followed? Until they are, are you doing much more than crying 'Lord, Lord'?
At what point does one cross over from "empty professi e follow what Jesus teaches or follow a conceptualization of Jesus given by others?[/b]
No.
Until they are, are you doing much more than crying 'Lord, Lord'?
Christ's teachings will not be truly followed until one trusts in Jesus for salvation. There are those who cry, "Lord, Lord," yet do not lift a finger to help their neighbor, and there are those who cry, "Lord, Lord," yet do not trust in Christ for salvation, even though they have "many might works". Both are doomed. In each case sincere faith is non-existent.
At what point does one cross over from "empty profession" to something "genuine, sincere"?
This question doesn't really mean anything. You cross over from faithlessness to faithfulness the moment you truly believe in Jesus Christ. Heartfelt trust is either there, or it isn't. To cross over from "empty profession" to something "genuine, sincere" is really the same as saying you are crossing over from having no faith to having faith.
I have to believe that the line of demarcation is when follows the teachings of Jesus because one realizes that it's the only true way to live. What's your line of demarcation?
The line of demarcation is faith. One either has it, or one doesn't.
What glorifies God more? Following His ways or rejoicing/thanking/praising Him?
Here's what it means to follow the example of Jesus: to live a life of faith, in complete dependence upon the Father for everything.
Works without faith are works done depending on oneself; such works do not glorify the Father. Works arising from faith, however, do glorify the Father, because the Father is rejoiced in, thanked, and praised for being the One responsible for those works. So without praising God, one's works will not glorify Him.
Are rejoicing/thanking/praising Him anything more than superficial gestures?
Not if one's faith is real. "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:23-24).
And there's always the problematic Matthew 21-23. What could Jesus possibly mean. Surely, not anything so drastic as Jesus only knows those who follow Him?
Why is this passage problematic? Didn't James make it clear that an empty faith (mere intellectual assent, the kind the devils have) is useless? God will only accept a sincere faith. Only a sincere faith bears fruit for the kingdom.
Should one follow what Jesus teaches or follow a conceptualization of Jesus given by others?
By His example, Jesus teaches that the just shall live in complete dependence on the father for everything, "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself. He does only what he sees the Father doing. Whatever the Father does, the Son also does. For the Father loves the Son and shows him everything he is doing" (John 5:19-20).
Your error is essentially that you would seek to follow the "teachings of Christ" without living in complete dependence upon the Father for everything - including your own justification. But the life of radical dependence which Christ lived is only possible through faith, in the power of God. Without faith you will be unable to "see" what the Father is doing, nor would you be able to "follow" Him.
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Now, please answer my question: what is so superficial about the Gospel? What about Christ's sacrifice is insufficient to save a person?
13 Oct 07
3 edits
Originally posted by epiphinehasI'd really like to respond to this, but words fail me.
[b]Does one truly “trust” Jesus, if his teachings aren’t followed?
No.
Until they are, are you doing much more than crying 'Lord, Lord'?
Christ's teachings will not be truly followed until one trusts in Jesus for salvation. There are those who cry, "Lord, Lord," yet do not lift a finger to help their neighbor, and t about Christ's sacrifice is insufficient to save a person?[/b]
I don't know how to help you to see the truth.
If nothing else, I'd like to point out that your idea of my saying the "the gospel being superficial" is purely an inference on your part. If you re-read my post, I hope you'll be able to see that. You may not realize this, but you infer a lot of things that aren't there. Perhaps you've lost perspective. You can regain it if you're willing to set aside your pride and open yourself to truth.
13 Oct 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneOK, we've had enough of my ramblings. Let's assume I have yet to see the Truth. I'll give you a fair hearing, ThinkOfOne. Teach me how to reach the enlightened state which you have reached. Be very specific, in case I misunderstand you.
I'd really like to respond to this, but words fail me.
I don't know how to help you to see the truth.
If nothing else, I'd like to point out that the idea of my saying the "the gospel being superficial" is purely an inference on your part. If you re-read my post, I hope you'll be able to see that. You may not realize this, but you infer a lot of th ...[text shortened]... You can regain it if you're willing to set aside your pride and open yourself to truth.
13 Oct 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasIs that the voice of the Holy Spirit guiding you or your own voice?
OK, we've had enough of my ramblings. Let's assume I have yet to see the Truth. I'll give you a fair hearing, ThinkOfOne. Teach me how to reach the enlightened state which you have reached. Be very specific, in case I misunderstand you.
13 Oct 07
3 edits
Originally posted by epiphinehasTry to read the post in which you originally made your request as neutrally as possible.
I don't always know.
EDIT: I will give you a fair hearing, I promise. But I will ask questions, so be prepared.
Is that the voice of the Holy Spirit or your own voice?
13 Oct 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneHere's what you said, "I don't know how to help you to see the truth... Perhaps you've lost perspective. You can regain it if you're willing to set aside your pride and open yourself to truth."
Presumably the Holy Spirit is about Truth. What is the request you made in your voice about?
You also said in another thread, "Unfortunately the vast majority (including Christians, perhaps especially even) never reach enlightenment."
I'm assuming, then, since you speak with a certain air of authority on these matters, that you have reached such "enlightenment." Pray tell, how did you reach that state, and what can you teach me about it (how to achieve it, etc.). I want to know if there is indeed any of Truth in what you have to say.
13 Oct 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasThe Holy Spirit seeks Truth. Your request was made in your voice, not the voice of Truth. What are you seeking?
Here's what you said, "I don't know how to help you to see the truth... Perhaps you've lost perspective. You can regain it if you're willing to set aside your pride and open yourself to truth."
You also said in another thread, "Unfortunately the vast majority (including Christians, perhaps especially even) never reach enlightenment."
I'm assuming, ...[text shortened]... e it, etc.). I want to know if there is indeed any of Truth in what you have to say.
13 Oct 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneQuit stalling, please. I'm beginning to grow suspicious. I've already said what I'm seeking from you: "I want to know if there is indeed any of Truth in what you have to say."
The Holy Spirit seeks Truth. Your request was made in your voice, not the voice of Truth. What are you seeking?
13 Oct 07
1 edit
Originally posted by epiphinehasYou aren't seeking Truth. How can you receive Truth if you aren't open to it.
Quit stalling, please. I'm beginning to grow suspicious. I've already said what I'm seeking from you: "I want to know if there is indeed any of Truth in what you have to say."
Since you haven't noticed, I have started teaching you.