The adversary is within

@sonship said
Satan sends deceptive error into the world on a two pronged attack.
He sends lies into the world in opposite pairs in order to catch people in one lie or its opposite lie.

Concerning his own existence his stradegy is also twofold:

1.) To capture the minds of those who do not believe in his existence.

OR

2.) To capture the mind ...[text shortened]... error into the world in opposite pairs to trap people on either side of what he has people propose.

Sounds like church nonsense. The bible says

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.(James 4:7-8 KJV)

There is no attack. People choose what they want. There are two types of people
- Some like a life of sin and evil and that is what they will have and will reap corruption, as clearly stated in other parts of the bible
- Others prefer to live in righteousness and godliness and God knows these people are and God draws near to them.

First people make their decision as to how they will live, and then God helps them.

@divegeester said
According to your own doctrine:

1) God is sovereign … BUT…
2) God creates hell and eternal suffering in advance, you know, ready in advance!
3) God creates Lucifer/Satan
4) God creates humans and put them in a garden
5) God allows Satan into the garden
6) Humans get deceived by Satan
7) God boots humans out of the garden telling them to go and reproduce …. Knowi ...[text shortened]... advance that …
11) Jesus will be in hell overseeing the burning alive for eternity

Great plan.

I have often wondered why all the rigmarole. Why didn't God just forgive Adam?? No need for banishment, no need for being fruitful and multiplying, no need for a flood, no need for a saviour and dying on the cross. I mean, any loving father doesn't send his naughty kids out into the cold cruel world just because one of them disobeyed once. Any loving father says to his kid something like "I wish you hadn't done that. Now let's go play Lego together."

@josephw said
That's not the way it tells it in the Bible.

Lucifer chose to rebel. God changed his name to Satan.

If even angels fall, what cause have we to feel ashamed?

@rajk999 said
Nothing happens in this world without the knowledge of God

It's not just that God knew of the snake; God put it there, knowing what the consequences would be. All of them. So why didn't God just forgive Adam? Why all the rigamarole? I mean, it doesn't make any sense as an explanation of what actually happened. It makes sense only as allegory, as a moral imperative or something like a moral imperative (e.g., "submit" ).

@moonbus said
I have often wondered why all the rigmarole. Why didn't God just forgive Adam?? No need for banishment, no need for being fruitful and multiplying, no need for a flood, no need for a saviour and dying on the cross. I mean, any loving father doesn't send his naughty kids out into the cold cruel world just because one of them disobeyed once. Any loving father says to his kid something like "I wish you hadn't done that. Now let's go play Lego together."

"Gee, thanks dad. It's good to know there's no consequences for my disobedience. I guess that means you don't know sh t, and I can do whatever I want".

@moonbus said
If even angels fall, what cause have we to feel ashamed?

Disobedience.

@josephw said
"Gee, thanks dad. It's good to know there's no consequences for my disobedience. I guess that means you don't know sh t, and I can do whatever I want".

"I can do whatever I want" is how you interpret that? What a brat you must have been. I have raised my children with love and no threats, and they don't do whatever they want. They know that doing whatever they want is irresponsible, it's Donald Trumpism. That is what I taught them.

@moonbus said
It's not just that God knew of the snake; God put it there, knowing what the consequences would be. All of them. So why didn't God just forgive Adam? Why all the rigamarole? I mean, it doesn't make any sense as an explanation of what actually happened. It makes sense only as allegory, as a moral imperative or something like a moral imperative (e.g., "submit" ).

You're an adult aren't you? Think like one!

You're acting as though you know God makes mistakes. It's what your argument is predicated on. You think you know better than God what's good for you.

@josephw said
It's simple. God exists, and you're in denial. That's "how on Earth could you choose to NOT KNOW he exists".

Thanks for the banter.

@josephw said
Disobedience.

Disobedience as the original sin makes sense if one accepts a command-and-threat-ethic. Which is exactly what the Hebrew tradition is: "Don't do X, and if you do, you're gonna get it!"

This is left over from a socially primitive era of human evolution, and still appropriate for individuals at a certain stage of moral development (e.g., for the Donald Trumps of this world, who think "freedom" or "freewill" means freedom to do whatever they want, which is why the Donald so badly needs to hang onto the Commander In Chief title, so he really can do whatever he wants with no accountability and no consequences).


Command-based ethics is not the only game in town.

@josephw said
You're acting as though you know God makes mistakes. It's what your argument is predicated on. You think you know better than God what's good for you.

When people like moonbus and I interact with people like you, we are talking about the ideology you espouse which you attribute to a supernatural being referred to as God. If "mistakes" are pointed out, it is in the moral logic of your ideology and not the shortcomings of an actual being.

@moonbus said
"I can do whatever I want" is how you interpret that? What a brat you must have been. I have raised my children with love and no threats, and they don't do whatever they want. They know that doing whatever they want is irresponsible, it's Donald Trumpism. That is what I taught them.

Did you teach your children to deny God His rightful place in their lives?

Everyone does whatever they want including denying the existence of their maker. It's a choice in the face of the clear and present evidence of a creator.

Your kids are no better than mine or any one else's. Even the most ethical and moral people are flawed.

@josephw said
Even the way you phrased it is absurd. "Your God figure"?

Yes, your God figure. Exactly.

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@josephw said
You're an adult aren't you? Think like one!

You're acting as though you know God makes mistakes. It's what your argument is predicated on. You think you know better than God what's good for you.

If you think I think God makes mistakes, then you don't get my point. Try again.