Sinners in the Hand

Originally posted by KellyJay
God give life and takes it away, you have anyone else who can do that?
Kelly

I gave life to my two kids. I planned the time and place both locally and in my life. I have the ability to take life, although I have chosen not to do so.

Now I'm going to head this off at the pass in that I'm not claiming to be God. You merely asked if anyone else can give life and take it away, which I can do.

Originally posted by KellyJay
God give life and takes it away, you have anyone else who can do that?
Kelly

Kelly, what does that have to do with anything? I didn't ask Manny how he would go about arguing that God has the ability, or power, to take life. (Doesn't it just follow trivially from his supposed attributes that God can do such things?) I asked how he would go about arguing that God has the right to take the life (presumably for any old reason) of persons he creates. I fail to see how your post is at all relevant to this. After all, showing that one has the ability to do X hardly shows that one has the right to do X. Surely you can understand this point. For example, you have the ability to sneak into your kids' rooms at night and chop their heads off while they sleep; but of course, that doesn't mean you have a right to do such a thing. Similarly, showing that God has certain abilities does not show that he has the right to treat persons he creates just any old way he wants. So how is your point relevant?

Originally posted by Badwater
No, I don't mean a personal taste term or I would have said so.

The specific killings of humans where it would not be murder is that which is not premeditated. I'm beginning to see evidence that you don't read my posts - at all.

I read your posts, so for you all killing is murder if intent is involved?
Kelly

Originally posted by Badwater
I gave life to my two kids. I planned the time and place both locally and in my life. I have the ability to take life, although I have chosen not to do so.

Now I'm going to head this off at the pass in that I'm not claiming to be God. You merely asked if anyone else can give life and take it away, which I can do.

You did not give life to your two kids, you may be a parent but you
cannot at will give life to anyone.
Kelly

Originally posted by LemonJello
Kelly, what does that have to do with anything? I didn't ask Manny how he would go about arguing that God has the ability, or power, to take life. (Doesn't it just follow trivially from his supposed attributes that God can do such things?) I asked how he would go about arguing that God has the right to take the life (presumably for any old reason) of p right to treat persons he creates just any old way he wants. So how is your point relevant?

I am saying that God setup the universe as it is, all the constants are
his, He sets up all things, He gives power and He takes it away. Life
is a gift from Him, we do not will life into being we hope for it, we call
it a blessing. God setups up the limits of our lives, no one else does
that, we may act as if we have some manner of control over it all, we
may eat and exercise to stay fit and do all manner of thing to prolong
our lives, but no matter what we are bound to die, because that is the
end of life here as we know it now, not setup by us, but by God.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I am saying that God setup the universe as it is, all the constants are
his, He sets up all things, He gives power and He takes it away. Life
is a gift from Him, we do not will life into being we hope for it, we call
it a blessing. God setups up the limits of our lives, no one else does
that, we may act as if we have some manner of control over it all, ...[text shortened]... ie, because that is the
end of life here as we know it now, not setup by us, but by God.
Kelly

Again, I'm not understanding how any of this is relevant. What does any of this have to do with the subject of what rights God may have with respect to treatment of persons he creates?

Originally posted by LemonJello
Again, I'm not understanding how any of this is relevant. What does any of this have to do with the subject of what rights God may have with respect to treatment of persons he creates?

I wasn't aware of you had rights beyond what God gave you, you have
some means of holding God accountable for something?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I wasn't aware of you had rights beyond what God gave you, you have
some means of holding God accountable for something?
Kelly

Huh? Are you just failing to understand this discussion, or what? Manny said that one could argue that God has the right to take the life of persons he created. I asked him how he would go about arguing that God has this right. I don't know what you are going on about, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with any argument that aims to establish something about the rights may God hold with respect to treatment of his creation.

Originally posted by LemonJello
Huh? Are you just failing to understand this discussion, or what? Manny said that one could argue that God has the right to take the life of persons he created. I asked him how he would go about arguing that God has this right. I don't know what you are going on about, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with any argument that aims to establish something about the rights may God holds with respect to treatment of his creation.

It is no different than the potter and pot, the pot gets no rights with
how it is made or disposed of, the potter does with his own as he sees
fit.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
It is no different than the potter and pot, the pot gets no rights with
how it is made or disposed of, the potter does with his own as he sees
fit.
Kelly

No, you're confused. The reason it is permissible for a potter to dispense with a pot as he sees fit is because a pot has no mentality and has no interests and cannot be harmed in any way and therefore doesn't merit consideration as a moral patient. However, persons are different in that they have sufficient mental life for consideration as a moral patient, which means that it is not permissible for one to treat a person just any old way he sees fit.

What exactly makes it permissible for God to treat other persons just any old way he sees fit, but not permissible for you to do the same? Just the fact that he ultimately created the other persons whereas you didn't? You'll have to explain that for me because I'm not understanding how that makes any sense.

Originally posted by LemonJello
No, you're confused. The reason it is permissible for a potter to dispense with a pot as he sees fit is because a pot has no mentality and has no interests and cannot be harmed in any way and therefore doesn't merit consideration as a moral patient. However, persons are different in that they have sufficient mental life for consideration as a moral pati ...[text shortened]... You'll have to explain that for me because I'm not understanding how that makes any sense.

Let me ask you again, you have anything that God has not given to
us? Your air, your life all that you have you owe to him, by what claim
can you again go to God with and say He owes you in any means?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Let me ask you again, you have anything that God has not given to
us? Your air, your life all that you have you owe to him, by what claim
can you again go to God with and say He owes you in any means?
Kelly

Again, even if it is true that everything I have was given to me by God, how exactly does that show that he has the right to treat me any old way he pleases? Please explain. Again, it's not making any sense to me.

Originally posted by LemonJello
Again, even if it is true that everything I have was given to me by God, how exactly does that show that he has the right to treat me any old way he pleases? Please explain. Again, it's not making any sense to me.

It is only because God is love and just that you can even entertain such
questions, if He were as people here paint Him; you'd just live your life
in misery for His sadistic pleasure, again without recourse. There is
none that can deliver us out of His hand, no court of appeals He is
bound to that we can go to so you can plead our case, if justice isn’t
found in Him and His nature, there is none.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
It is only because God is love and just that you can even entertain such
questions, if He were as people here paint Him; you'd just live your life
in misery for His sadistic pleasure, again without recourse. There is
none that can deliver us out of His hand, no court of appeals He is
bound to that we can go to so you can plead our case, if justice isn’t
found in Him and His nature, there is none.
Kelly

Again, I really don't see how this has anything to do with my question to Manny.

Originally posted by LemonJello
Again, I really don't see how this has anything to do with my question to Manny.

What right do you think you have God owes you?
Kelly