Salvation

Originally posted by Nemesio
Yes. Man had a choice. He chose poorly.

God made a creature that would choose poorly.

God made an imperfect creature.

God, being omnipotent, could have made a creature that would choose wisely.

This is so simple.

Nemesio

Mankind had the ability to make the right choice. Mankind problem has always been self. Mankind put self above the WORD OF GOD. Nothing has changed since that time. You are only looking to satisfy man not to satisfy GOD. Once you are able to look at from a different perspective, you will never understand what happened in the Garden of Eden, or the events that lead up the choice.

Originally posted by blindfaith101
GOD trusted man to tend to the garden while he went off. Man's actions only prove that man cannot be trusted. Yes GOD knew that man could make the wrong decision. Man believed the lie, that he would be like GOD. Without having any understanding or knowledge, that there was a reason that GOD said, "do not touch."
I donot think you understand, There ...[text shortened]... That is what is expected of all those that believe and follow GOD. Hear what GOD says and do it.

BF: GOD trusted man to tend to the garden while he went off.

Where'd God go off to?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
[b]I think what checkbaiter was referring to was the struggle between good and evil that occurs in the hearts of people. Surely the OT recognizes this whether it is viewed “through the lens of the NT” or not.

No. I meant an actual spiritual battle.Note the following verses...

Dan 10:12-13
12 Then he said to me, "Do not fear, Daniel, for from ...[text shortened]... reated with free will. He made a poor choice to rebel, however... God was prepared for this too.[/b]

No. I meant an actual spiritual battle.Note the following verses...

Dan 10:12-13
12 Then he said to me, "Do not fear, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand, and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard; and I have come because of your words.
13 "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia.
(NKJ)

This was a battle between an Angel of God and a spirit being from Satan. Michael, another Angel had to assist.

I guess it’s examples like these that I refer to when I say that the scripture is open to interpretation.

These verses (in my interpretation) speak of the battle that occurred within Daniel’s heart. The angel is saying that when Daniel chose God in his heart, God sent an angel to help him in the battle of evil that we all endure.

Simply choosing God does not mean that satan never tempts us again. It simply means that we draw on God’s awesome power to fight satan. Wouldn’t it be nice if we could defeat satan once and for all in just twenty-one days as Daniel did?

Again, these verses can be interpreted in more than one way.

Here was another "gamble" if you will. Lucifer was not created evil. He was created with free will. He made a poor choice to rebel, however... God was prepared for this too.

I’ve heard this account before. I’m not sure if I have an opinion on it. I like to stay focused on what’s going on in my life right now, and how I can achieve my immediate goals.

Whether accounts like these are accurate or not does not change the fact that we all have to battle evil in our own lives.

Originally posted by Nemesio
Well, isn't that nice of God. He had the capacity to make a perfect being so that
no evil would enter the world, and yet He didn't.

Nemesio

How could there be evil if there is no choice? How could there be good if there is no evil?

Is it not better for somebody to choose to love you and give there hearts to you freely, than for you to impose your will on them and force them to serve you?

Originally posted by The Chess Express
How could there be evil if there is no choice? How could there be good if there is no evil?

Is it not better to for somebody to choose to love you and give there hearts to you freely, than for you to impose your will on them and force them to serve you?

No. Not if you have to allow the infliction of an almost unlimited amount of suffering so you can enjoy them "choosing to love you". Your God sounds awfully needy. And why would an all-powerful God care whether something so inferior to him as humans "love him" or not? Do you want your goldfish to "love" you (and a goldfish would be closer to a human than a human is to an almighty, all-knowing God).

Originally posted by blindfaith101
Your postings over the past year illitrate your views, and your feelings toward GOD. Your views and opinions let it be known your feelings toward GOD.
In order to understand GOD,you must obey HIM. If you chosen to disobey THE WORD OF GOD, you will never understand the truth.
Yes I have blindfaith, in my trust in THE WORD OF GOD. Problely the same fai ...[text shortened]... That is what every follower of CHRIST is expected to do. Trust and do what CHRIST says. Are you?

In order to understand GOD,you must obey HIM. If you chosen to disobey THE WORD OF GOD, you will never understand the truth.

So why then do you continue to reject the scripture?

Yes I have blindfaith, in my trust in THE WORD OF GOD. Problely the same faith that those blind men that regained their sight. Through trusting and doing what JESUS CHRIST told them to do. That is what every follower of CHRIST is expected to do. Trust and do what CHRIST says. Are you?

Yet you don’t follow Jesus’ teachings. I would say that you have blind faith in those who have interpreted the scripture for you.

Originally posted by no1marauder
No. Not if you have to allow the infliction of an almost unlimited amount of suffering so you can enjoy them "choosing to love you". Your God sounds awfully needy. And why would an all-powerful God care whether something so inferior to him as humans "love him" or not? Do you want your goldfish to "love" you (and a goldfish would be closer to a human than a human is to an almighty, all-knowing God).

No. Not if you have to allow the infliction of an almost unlimited amount of suffering so you can enjoy them "choosing to love you".

Consider the grand scheme of things. God is eternal and so are we. We are reflections of God that were made in his image. This means that we existed for an eternity before we were brought here, and we will exist for an eternity after we leave.

In comparison to this, what difference does a few years on earth make. When we finally learn, the reward for both us and God will be eternal.

Your God sounds awfully needy.

You don’t know my God. Perhaps you are referring to somebody else’s description of him.

And why would an all-powerful God care whether something so inferior to him as humans "love him" or not? Do you want your goldfish to "love" you (and a goldfish would be closer to a human than a human is to an almighty, all-knowing God).

You pretty much have to throw out most of what the various religions teach in order to make sense of this. God created us in his image. Our value to him in immeasurable.

Considering certain people to be “so inferior” as you put it is a phenomena that is unique to people like you. Try not to confuse your obsession to tear down anybody who has a different view than you with God’s divine ways.

Originally posted by no1marauder
BF: GOD trusted man to tend to the garden while he went off.

Where'd God go off to?

And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. GENESIS 2:2,3

Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]In order to understand GOD,you must obey HIM. If you chosen to disobey THE WORD OF GOD, you will never understand the truth.

So why then do you continue to reject the scripture?

Yes I have blindfaith, in my trust in THE WORD OF GOD. Problely the same faith that those blind men that regained their sight. Through trusting and doing wh ...[text shortened]... ings. I would say that you have blind faith in those who have interpreted the scripture for you.

I know that I do follow the Teachings of JESUS CHRIST. I do believe every word of THE WORD OF GOD.
By the way, what scripture have I rejected?
What teaching have I not followed?
What interrpetation of Scripture is not of GOD?

Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]No. Not if you have to allow the infliction of an almost unlimited amount of suffering so you can enjoy them "choosing to love you".

Consider the grand scheme of things. God is eternal and so are we. We are reflections of God that were made in his image. This means that we existed for an eternity before we were brought here, and we will ...[text shortened]... se your obsession to tear down anybody who has a different view than you with God’s divine ways.[/b]

Your last sentence shows what a contemptible piece of trash that you are. For you to pretend that you are somehow more moral than me because you wish to ignore the rights of women is laughable. I never said anybody was "inferior" to me, so you are merely a liar. Are people inferior to God? That was my point. Address it without your stupid lies.

Originally posted by blindfaith101
And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. GENESIS 2:2,3

That didn't answer my question. You said God "went off"; my question is "where did he go off to"? Can you answer that question without quoting every single sentence in Genesis?

Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]No. Not if you have to allow the infliction of an almost unlimited amount of suffering so you can enjoy them "choosing to love you".

Consider the grand scheme of things. God is eternal and so are we. We are reflections of God that were made in his image. This means that we existed for an eternity before we were brought here, and we will ...[text shortened]... se your obsession to tear down anybody who has a different view than you with God’s divine ways.[/b]

Your last sentence shows what a contemptible piece of trash that you are

Here we go again for another round of personal attacks from marauder.

I never said anybody was "inferior" to me, so you are merely a liar.

This is 90% of all you say. Sometimes, when the shit totally consumes us, we think that the world is brown and everybody else sees it the wrong color.

Are people inferior to God? That was my point.

I’ve already addressed this as well as I can.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
God created us in his image. Our value to him in immeasurable.

Considering certain people to be “so inferior” as you put it is a phenomena that is unique to people like you. Try not to confuse your obsession to tear down anybody who has a different view than you with God’s divine ways.

Now, if you would stop pretending that you have any knowledge of scripture or what it means to follow the teachings of Jesus, particularly in regards to how we are to treat other people, and save your ceaseless verbal attacks for those who are willing to respond in kind, it would be appreciated.

Originally posted by blindfaith101
I know that I do follow the Teachings of JESUS CHRIST. I do believe every word of THE WORD OF GOD.
By the way, what scripture have I rejected?
What teaching have I not followed?
What interrpetation of Scripture is not of GOD?

You reject all the passages that I've given you in the past.

If you insist, I'll use them again, but I would rather you just go back and check previous posts.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]I’m willing to leave it out altogether!!!

[/b]You’re a good man. 🙂

The notion of God taking a gamble with creation seems to be a common one in the Jewish literature, and I kind of like it.

Yes, a gamble in the sense that it will lead to trouble, but also one with a fixed outcome.

I’m not coming at this from a Christian ...[text shortened]... n if God made creation so that evil could exist, it would still be satan who uses it to destroy.

I would argue that as soon as a child develops a sense of empathy they pretty much come to the “level of consciousness where they judge between good/bad, pleasant/unpleasant, bondage/liberty”. This of coarse enters the realm of morals.

I need to think about that; I don’t know enough about developmental psychology. I would think that the “age of empathy” would come before “the age of reason.”

I don’t quite understand what you mean by “they (we) will know “know” righteousness and unrighteousness”. Perhaps you could explain what “know righteousness“ is.

Basically, I just meant, whenever we come to know—or perhaps realize that we know—the difference between moral right and wrong, as opposed to, say, just obeying some recognized power or authority. When we can understand it for ourselves. (Note: Another word often used to translate tzedek is “justice.” Righteousness in Judaism seems always to have that connotation.)

If it was a Christian innovation then wouldn’t there be only one Christianity? I believe that whether people agree with it or not, the scriptures are open to interpretation.

Good point. The thing is that, in rabbinical Judaism it is formally recognized that the scriptures are always open to interpretation—and new and innovative interpretations. This does not mean that there is not argument, or hermeneutical guidelines. But the differences between Christian denominations seem often to stem from disagreements where each one says: “This is what it means (and must mean).” There are different Jewish “denominations,” of course—but that seems to have a slightly different basis.

Perhaps you could try to stick more to common language. Just a suggestion.

(a) You’re right (my wife tells me that too!). 😳

(b) Sometimes, however, “common language” only gives us the impression that we understand something thoroughly. (Perhaps I do thrive on the complications….?)

I think what checkbaiter was referring to was the struggle between good and evil that occurs in the hearts of people. Surely the OT recognizes this whether it is viewed “through the lens of the NT” or not.

Yes, agreed—but CB has said that is not what he meant.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]Your last sentence shows what a contemptible piece of trash that you are

Here we go again for another round of personal attacks from marauder.

I never said anybody was "inferior" to me, so you are merely a liar.

This is 90% of all you say. Sometimes when the shit totally consumes us, we think that the world is brown and eve ...[text shortened]... ceaseless verbal attacks for those who are willing to respond in kind, it would be appreciated.[/b]

You're pathetic; you initiate personal attacks where none existed and then cry about their presence in a thread where YOU started them! Typical hypocrite. Read your last sentence in this post for an incredible version of your typical hypocrisy.

Your "theology" doesn't make any sense. Are you saying human beings are equal to God? If someone paints a portrait of himself, that's "creating something in our image" to you does that mean that its "value is immeasurable"? Would a sane human being "love" it soooooooo much that we would allow it to suffer? Please try to address these points with something approaching logic rather than your usual platitudes and/or personal attacks.