Revelation 17,18

Originally posted by RJHinds

Revelation 17:1-7 NASB
Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth committed acts of immorality, and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality.” And he carr ...[text shortened]... RY. BABYLON THE GREAT, THE EMBODIMENT OF ALL HARLOTS AND THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

The translation is based on a misunderstanding of the use of the Arabic word "umm" (mother). Besides its literal meaning, "umm" -- when followed by another noun -- is often equivalent to English words like "chief," "main" or "principal" (as in "mother lode" ).

Thus, "umm al-watan" (mother of the homeland) means "metropolis," "ummahat al-hawadith" (mothers of events) means "major events," and "ummahat as-suhuf" (mothers of newspapers) means "leading newspapers." The Arabic phrase literally meaning "mother of battles" (umm al-ma'arik) can best be translated "the great battle," "the mighty battle," perhaps "the decisive battle."

I am very aware that this expression, like "the mother of all battles" is used in the Middle East.

Comment on the usage of the phrase "daughter of Babylon" seen in Psalm 137. about God's judgment of that ancient kingdom.

" O daughter of Babylon, who are to be devastated, Happy will he be who repays you the recompense of what you have rendered to us. " (Psalm 137:8)

You point out that "daughters" are not explicitly mentioned in Revelation 17. I agree.

But how do you think the Holy Spirit means us to understand when in the Old Testament Babylon is judged, it mentions her daughter ?

Originally posted by sonship
And who do you believe the harlot is or represents ?

To be thorough it should be noted that [b]Revelation has the sitting of the harlot or woman on three matters.

1.) The Prostitute sits on many waters. (v.1,15))

2.) The Woman sits on a seven headed beast with names of blasphemy (v.3)

3.) The Woman sits on seven mountains (v.9)[/ ...[text shortened]... ount.

Please tell me what you believe about the Prostitute or Harlot of [b]Revelation 17.[/b]

I want to go back to Revelation 17:1 for a moment,

"And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:"

And compare this with Jeremiah 51:11-14:

"11 Make bright the arrows; gather the shields: the LORD hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his device is against Babylon, to destroy it; because it is the vengeance of the LORD, the vengeance of his temple.
12 Set up the standard upon the walls of Babylon, make the watch strong, set up the watchmen, prepare the ambushes: for the LORD hath both devised and done that which he spake against the inhabitants of Babylon.
13 O thou that dwellest upon many waters, abundant in treasures, thine end is come, and the measure of thy covetousness.
14 The LORD of hosts hath sworn by himself, saying, Surely I will fill thee with men, as with caterpillers; and they shall lift up a shout against thee."

Especially Jer. 51:13.

Are these two passages talking of the same thing?

Judgement against the Harlot?

Perhaps the Harlot is a modern-day Babylon? That sits or dwells "upon many waters"? Abundant in treasures? What city could this be?

Originally posted by Suzianne
I want to go back to Revelation 17:1 for a moment,

"And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:"

And compare this with Jeremiah 51:11-14:

"11 Make bright the arrows; gather the shields: the LOR ...[text shortened]... ylon? That sits or dwells "upon many waters"? Abundant in treasures? What city could this be?

Great verses.

You have to think how the history of Israel in the Old Testament has its corresponding matter with the church in the New.

The OT lamb is matched with Christ as the Lamb of God.
The OT kingdom of Israel is matched with the kingdom of God in the New.

You have a delivery and crossing of the Red Sea in the OT.
You have a baptism and coming out of the world in the New Testament.

You have the Promise Land of Canaan in the Old Testament.
You have the All-inclusive Jesus Christ as our new covenant promise land in the New.

You have the tabernacle and then the temple as God's dwelling in the OT.
Then you have the church as the habitation of God in spirit in the New.

You have pictures in the Old Testament.
You have caption under the pictures in the New Testament.

You have God's nation carried away from the Promise Land to Babylon in the OT.
There is some corresponding history in the new covenant age that mirrors this.

That is the carrying away of God's people, the church, into a "Babylon" and held captive AWAY from the riches of Christ.

You have the divine judgment upon Babylon of the OT as you pointed out in Jeremiah.
There will be a corresponding judgment upon the spiritual Babylon.

And God says "Come out of her My people" (Rev. 18:4) .

Originally posted by sonship
Great verses.

You have to think how the history of Israel in the Old Testament has its corresponding matter with the church in the New.

The OT lamb is matched with Christ as the Lamb of God.
The OT kingdom of Israel is matched with the kingdom of God in the New.

You have a delivery and crossing of the Red Sea in the OT.
You have a baptism and comi ...[text shortened]... nt upon the spiritual Babylon.

And God says [b]"Come out of her My people" (Rev. 18:4) .[/b]

Do you think that maybe there is, today, a "New Babylon", perhaps in the New World, that God's "new" people, the Christians, are warned to "Come out of her" before the end, before this "New Babylon" is judged?

What New World city, this "New Babylon", represented by the Harlot, who is "abundant in treasure", could this be?

The post that was quoted here has been removed

I must admit, this is where I was going, as you can probably tell by my frequent use of the word "new".

Let me go on.

"With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication."

America has abundant wealth, and many nations have entered into "agreements" with the US and the "inhabitants" of these countries have often seen their fortunes (or perhaps just their standard of living) rise as a result. The "kings" or leaders of these countries profit and it trickles down to the citizens.

"And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:"

Again, America has not been shy in showing other countries of the world exactly how rich she is. And, as sonship has noted, the "golden cup" is shiny on the outside, yet filthy within, much like the political systems within the US.

"And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration."

America has much blood on her hands, mainly the blood of her young, sent off to war for the political aspirations of her old men. And this is separate from the blood of the saints of martyrs, from the many in government whose talk and walk are so different. Evangelical Christian-types who pretend to care about the downtrodden while cutting their lifelines (social security or welfare checks). "What did you expect?", indeed.

"And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."

New York City has been described in the past as "sitting on many waters" referring to the waterways which converge to make New York Harbor. And yes, this verse from Revelation speaks truth, for what other New World city is known for her wide assortment, a melting pot, if you will, of many "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues"?

"For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled."

When the AntiChrist comes to power, many nations will fall in line with him because of their associations with America.

"And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth."

And this is my point. The woman IS that great city, "which reigneth over the kings of the earth". For many nations in the world today, the direction they go, is the direction America goes. Financial agreements and trade agreements hold these kings in sway even more tightly than bonds of friendship.

"For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies."

Again, a repeat of what was said in Rev. 17, and furthermore, "the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies." Again, America.

"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her."

The Judgement of America. I've said before that this is the single most reason why America, arguably the greatest nation on earth, eclipsing even the Roman Empire, is not mentioned in the Bible at the end times. After her Judgement, which shall fall very close to the end, maybe even as a result of the Tribulation, she is a mere shell of her former self.

"And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her."

More of the Judgement. The rest of world can only stand back and watch. And many will wail and mourn, because she'll take her riches with her into destruction. Possibly a nuclear attack, it will be devastating and quick.

"And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth."

And it is done. Despite all the "Christian" evangelists in government talking a big game about devotion to God and His glory (all the while walking the sinful walk), God's Judgement has fallen on America, "for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived."

The post that was quoted here has been removed

I'm not going to tell anyone what to think. As always, you can interpret as you will.

But I don't think God's Judgement or the full wrath of God would be limited to one "nuclear device". But Rev 18 speaks of the city burning with fire and also plagues. And plagues come in many forms as we saw in Exodus.

Originally posted by Suzianne
I must admit, this is where I was going, as you can probably tell by my frequent use of the word "new".

Let me go on.

[b]"With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication."

America has abundant wealth, and many nations have entered into "agreement ...[text shortened]... walk), God's Judgement has fallen on America, "for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived."[/b]

WHEW !!

I am sure some readers may be saying - "With Christians like that, who needs radical Moslems ? "

LOL!

I'll give you some thoughts on that latter.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Do you think that maybe there is, today, a "New Babylon", perhaps in the New World, that God's "new" people, the Christians, are warned to "Come out of her" before the end, before this "New Babylon" is judged?

What New World city, this "New Babylon", represented by the Harlot, who is "abundant in treasure", could this be?

When I first read the Bible and considered what Revelation 17,18 might mean I did think of New York City as what it was talking about.

Presently, I think chapter 17 is about religious Babylon (a mystery).
And chapter 18 is about material Babylon (the city of Rome).

Where do I think America with New York comes into all of this ?

If you recall, RJHinds thought that the vision in Rev. 17 in the wilderness he believes refers to the desert somewhere in the Middle East. I told him that I interpreted the wilderness in more of a spiritual way of spiritual dryness and desolation.

However, the wilderness mentioned in chapter 12 where the persecuted Bright Woman flees, I DO interpret in more of a geographic way.

"And to the woman there were given the two wings of the great eagle that she might fly into the wilderness into her place, where she is nourished, for a time and times and half a time from the face of the serpent." (Rev. 12:14)

At this time I believe that what is meant by the wilderness in this case refers to what would have been considered geographically far away from the civilized society in John's day. This would be the "new world" and perhaps other unknown areas to that Roman ruled empire.

Presently, my feeling is that the what was at THAT time considered wilderness would include the North American continent as well as probably other unexplored regions.

This understanding means that refugees fleeing Antichrist and his armies will escape with God's help to places far off from the area of the Roman Empire. That would include the so called "New World".

By that time the the New World will not be a world power. Probably this "wilderness" will be weakened, serving mostly as a place refugees fleeing from a revived Roman Empire area around the Mediterranean sea chiefly, may get away.

This understanding changed my thoughts about the extent of the kingdom of Antichrist. At present I think his sphere of power will be around the Mediterranean sea closely approximating the sphere of the Roman Empire at John's time.

However, Daniel chapter 2 with the vision of a stone cut out without hands smiting the great image in the toes to crumble and scatter the entire image, refers to Christ's coming. This coming of Christ will destroy all the empires and kingdoms to replace them with His millennial kingdom.

From the head of the image down to the feet of the image we are looking at time. Four major empires are only repreentative of all worldly empires. You have four sections of the image - Babylon empire, Medeo - Persian empire - Greece empire- Roman empire. The four are representative of man's empires.

The toes of iron mixed with clay represent democracies of the latter ages. And Christ is the stone cut out without hands that smites the image at the toes of last days, and the image crumbles and the stone grows into a mountain to fill the whole earth.

"And in that you saw the iron mixed with earthy clay, they will be mixed together through the seed of men, but they will not cleave to one another, even as iron does not mix with clay.

And in the days of those kings the God of the heavens will raise up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and its reign will not be left to another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms and it will stand forever.

Insomuch as you saw that out of the mountain a stone was cut without hands and that it crushed the iron, the bronze, the silver, and the gold, the great God has made known to the king what will happen afterward; and the dream is certain, and its interpretation is trustworthy." (Daniel 2:42-45)

Money will cease in this destruction and all the financial powerhouses of the world will fail. The abundance of blessing on the earth will replace the mammon of unrighteousness which is sure to fail ( Luke 16:9 ).

I suspect that a greatly weakened North America will be part of the wilderness Rev. 12:14 to receive many persecuted peoples fleeing from the Antichrist's revived Roman Empire area around Europe and the Middle East. This will occur during the last three and one half years of this age.

Originally posted by sonship
When I first read the Bible and considered what Revelation 17,18 might mean I did think of New York City as what it was talking about.

Presently, I think chapter 17 is about religious Babylon (a mystery).
And chapter 18 is about material Babylon (the city of Rome).

Where do I think America with New York comes into all of this ?

If you recall, RJH ...[text shortened]... urope and the Middle East. This will occur during the last three and one half years of this age.

Hmmm, curious. I will give thought to this.

In the meantime, do you think America can, or is even equipped to, resist the AntiChrist? The banking systems alone in this country seem all too ready to fall in line with him.

Originally posted by sonship
WHEW !!

I am sure some readers may be saying - "With Christians like that, who needs radical Moslems ? "

LOL!

I'll give you some thoughts on that latter.

🙂 Funny...

I just think that there is plenty of evil "under the table" in America. We like to talk a big game about God and family and country, but so many people in this country are only in it for themselves and what they can glean off the fat of the golden calf. I used to think that talk of a "shadow government" was "crazy", but there are plenty of people with high position who are very close to being in thrall to evil, if not fully engulfed.

Judgement on them has to be coming.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] The translation is based on a misunderstanding of the use of the Arabic word "umm" (mother). Besides its literal meaning, "umm" -- when followed by another noun -- is often equivalent to English words like "chief," "main" or "principal" (as in "mother lode" ).

Thus, "umm al-watan" (mother of the homeland) means "metropolis," "ummahat al-hawadith" ...[text shortened]... t means us to understand when in the Old Testament Babylon is judged, it mentions her daughter ?

I don't know of any specific reference that explains this but more than likely "daughter of" is a metaphor representing certain people for it can not refer to a specific daughter. Here are some other examples:

Zechariah 9:9
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your king is coming to you; He is just and endowed with salvation, Humble, and mounted on a donkey, Even on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

The "daughter of" would represent the people of Jerusalem or Israel.

Matthew 21:5
"SAY TO THE DAUGHTER OF ZION, 'BEHOLD YOUR KING IS COMING TO YOU, GENTLE, AND MOUNTED ON A DONKEY, EVEN ON A COLT, THE FOAL OF A BEAST OF BURDEN.'"

Isaiah 47:1
"Come down and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon; Sit on the ground without a throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans! For you shall no longer be called tender and delicate.

Babylon is the land of the Chaldeans, so the "virgin daughter of Babylon" and the "daughter of the the Chaldeans" refer to the same people, not any specific daughter. But anyway I don't see that it would support your idea from Revelation 17 that "mother of" means the woman was a great city and also the Roman Catholic Church and it has denomination "daughters" made up of Protestant Churches.

Originally posted by Suzianne
I must admit, this is where I was going, as you can probably tell by my frequent use of the word "new".

Let me go on.

[b]"With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication."

America has abundant wealth, and many nations have entered into "agreement ...[text shortened]... walk), God's Judgement has fallen on America, "for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived."[/b]

There is plenty of sin and evil going on all over the world. As you mentioned, NYC may be a good candidate for the harlot woman riding the beast. However, like sonship, I don't believe NYC is that Great City of Revelation 17 and 18.

There are plenty of other places with people as sinful or more than the USA and NYC. Also the USA and NYC is not known for the Babylonian mystery religion. The USA has been a place of sanction for many people to escape the slavery of the Babylonian religious system of the Middle East.

I believe it is the Jews and the Christians that need to come out of Muslim kingdoms of the Middle East. COME OUT OF HER (Islam) MY PEOPLE (the Messianic Jews and the Christians).

Also as I mentioned before, the people of NYC and the USA are not beheading Christians as foretold. Those doing that are the radical Islamic terrorists of the Islamic State that are reviving the caliphate with the aim to capture Jerusalem and rule the world.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Hmmm, curious. I will give thought to this.

In the meantime, do you think America can, or is even equipped to, resist the AntiChrist? The banking systems alone in this country seem all too ready to fall in line with him.

In the meantime, do you think America can, or is even equipped to, resist the AntiChrist? The banking systems alone in this country seem all too ready to fall in line with him.
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I am not an economist. The intricacies of the future of the world's banking systems I well not try to predict.

What I am expecting, should this occur in my lifetime, is for the US to probably go down economically and the the so-called "Fortress Europe" form a conglomerate covering the area which was once the Roman Empire.

Prophecy in the Bible usually only gives us some details. When it all comes down other details we were not explicitly told by God will certainly be there. What He does tell us, He then uses to observe our hearts to how we adjust our relationship with Him in knowing what we know.