24 Oct 14
Originally posted by josephwI get that. Seems logical to me. What have you to fear? (Not being facetious)
[b]"You are right that I don't believe in a god. Hence I'm also not afraid of sinning or being eternally punished or whatever."
I get that. Seems logical to me. What have you to fear? (Not being facetious)
"As a result I'm also not making statements about what God does and doesn't do - after all, I don't believe in a god."
I get that too. ...[text shortened]... e dang sure I don't start blabbing my mouth off about it. Still, I am flawed like everyone else.[/b]
I have a lot to fear, but nothing that concerns me after I'm dead
I get that too. But I do believe in God. So where's the middle ground? Maybe there isn't any. So, I will persuade you, some how or the other.
Has the persuasion process already begun? 'Cause as of yet I'm not feeling it.
Now we're getting somewhere. I expect no less and welcome any and all objective observations.
You sounded less open minded previously.
I am having a difficult time finding solid Biblical grounds to support the assertion you quoted by sonship.
I can't enlighten you. I'm not the one with the power to enlighten. I can point. I can encourage. I can persuade. Argue. Debate. I can be wrong.
But there is this one thing. IF it is true that God has spoken, and that His words are the words of life, then it is imperative that Christians stick to the narrative.
That is where the problem begins. People just naturally want God's Word to say and mean what they want it to mean. There's much I don't understand about the Bible, but if I don't understand a verse or a passage I make dang sure I don't start blabbing my mouth off about it. Still, I am flawed like everyone else.
I and others have stated countless times before that God tortures people for all eternity (remember: I don't actually believe in God!). One of your fellow believers, sonship, has also said this, although he'll of course never call it torture. "Punishment" seems to be his word to cover up the actual truth.
You've said that this is wrong.
I am now asking you, what does happen to the Hitlers of this world after they die? Do they experience pain or profound unhappiness for all eternity? Or not?
If you say that my idea of a torturing god is "twisted" then you must also follow up and explain in what way it is twisted. So far, you are carefully navigating around that subject.
24 Oct 14
Originally posted by Great King Rat"I and others have stated countless times before that God tortures people for all eternity (remember: I don't actually believe in God!). One of your fellow believers, sonship, has also said this, although he'll of course never call it torture. "Punishment" seems to be his word to cover up the actual truth.
[b]I get that. Seems logical to me. What have you to fear? (Not being facetious)
I have a lot to fear, but nothing that concerns me after I'm dead
I get that too. But I do believe in God. So where's the middle ground? Maybe there isn't any. So, I will persuade you, some how or the other.
Has the persuasion process already begun? 'C ...[text shortened]... and explain in what way it is twisted. So far, you are carefully navigating around that subject.[/b]
You've said that this is wrong.
"I am now asking you, what does happen to the Hitlers of this world after they die? Do they experience pain or profound unhappiness for all eternity? Or not?"
The answer is not my own. I didn't invent God. God made me. That's what I believe. The answer I give is founded on the Word of God. A God you don't believe exists.
With that in mind let's try to understand what we're saying to each other. Objectively speaking, I see the lake of fire, as it appears in scripture, and I don't want to deviate from the narrative, as a place where Satan, the Beast and the false Prophet are cast into as well as all the dead that God judges fit to be cast into it. Death and hell too are cast into the lake of fire.
That's it! I'm not adding to it "burning agony for all eternity".
My question for the scriptures is this: do those that are cast into the lake of fire continue to exist, or are they "destroyed and perish"?
That is what seems to be the contention amongst believers. I'll be honest. I don't know. But I do know that whatever their state may involve, whether they continue to exist or not, they will be without doubt forever separated from the life of God. As if that isn't bad enough!
"If you say that my idea of a torturing god is "twisted" then you must also follow up and explain in what way it is twisted. So far, you are carefully navigating around that subject."
Do you really need me to expound on that? Though it may seem a contradiction in terms to you, i.e. "God is love" and God "destroys", God is infinite in all respects, and God makes no mistakes.
God is severe, and He is kind. God is wholly righteous, and God hates evil with an infinite hate, yet "God so loved the world..."
May I ask, perhaps your objections stem from a skewed perspective? In other words, maybe you, somewhere inside, feel a tinge of doubt, that maybe you are not really sure you know how you got here?
Peace 🙂
24 Oct 14
Originally posted by josephwThat is what seems to be the contention amongst believers. I'll be honest. I don't know. But I do know that whatever their state may involve, whether they continue to exist or not, they will be without doubt forever separated from the life of God. As if that isn't bad enough!
[b]"I and others have stated countless times before that God tortures people for all eternity (remember: I don't actually believe in God!). One of your fellow believers, sonship, has also said this, although he'll of course never call it torture. "Punishment" seems to be his word to cover up the actual truth.
You've said that this is wrong.
"I am now ...[text shortened]... feel a tinge of doubt, that maybe you are not really sure you know how you got here?
Peace 🙂
If you continue to exist in a lake of fire you’ll continue to be hurt. This is common sense. Your unwillingness to simply admit this is understandable. Because if you do, you will have to accept that God tortures people for all eternity, and you don’t want to assign qualities to God that appear to bad, so you deny it.
I have two questions:
1) If you continue to exist in this state (and thus burn forever and ever and ever), you will be forever separated from God. You say that like it’s a bad thing. Can you explain to me why that’s bad?
2) If you cease to exist (a possibility according to you) you will also be forever separated from God. Is that also a bad thing? Why, if you’ve ceased to exist?
May I ask, perhaps your objections stem from a skewed perspective? In other words, maybe you, somewhere inside, feel a tinge of doubt, that maybe you are not really sure you know how you got here?
Yes, some days I feel an emptiness and “lostness” in me that I suppose could be regarded as a dormant need for something that might turn out to be God. These are rough days.
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24 Oct 14
1 edit
One of your fellow believers, sonship, has also said this, although he'll of course never call it torture.
I believe I have used the word torment as that is what is mentioned in the NT concerning the the beast, the false prophet and the Devil.
New Living Translation
Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
English Standard Version
and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
New American Standard Bible
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
24 Oct 14
Originally posted by sonship[b] One of your fellow believers, sonship, has also said this, although he'll of course never call it torture.
I believe I have used the word torment as that is what is mentioned in the NT concerning the the beast, the false prophet and the Devil.
New Living Translation[/b]I mentioned people: I and others have stated countless times before that God tortures people for all eternity (remember: I don't actually believe in God!). One of your fellow believers, sonship, has also said this, although he'll of course never call it torture.
Then the devil, who had deceived the ...[text shortened]... e prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
If you believe god in fact also tortures people for all eternity, then fair enough, I take back that you didn't say torture/torment.
Not that it matters much, because feeling that tormenting anything - people or Beast - for all eternity is good, is pretty rotten anyway.
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24 Oct 14
1 edit
Originally posted by Great King RatIt is suffering enough just to be without knowing who one is or why one lives. To rise in the morning and wrestle with the questions of "Who am I and Why am I here in the universe?" only to retire the same evening empty of any solid answer, is itself a torment.
I mentioned people: [b]I and others have stated countless times before that God tortures people for all eternity (remember: I don't actually believe in God!). One of your fellow believers, sonship, has also said this, although he'll of course never call it torture.
If you believe god in fact also tortures people for all eternity, then fair enou ...[text shortened]... that tormenting anything - people or Beast - for all eternity is good, is pretty rotten anyway.[/b]
The heart seeks a pure goodness, like the song said "I've been searching for a heart of gold. And I gettin old."
In Jesus Christ men and women can find "a heart of gold".
And the suffering of being alienated from the life of God so eases. He comes into the heart to end the lonely torment of being "Fatherless" in His creation.
24 Oct 14
Originally posted by sonshipIt is suffering enough just to be without knowing who one is or why one lives. To rise in the morning and wrestle with the questions of "Who am I and Why am I here in the universe?" only to retire the same evening empty of any solid answer, is itself a torment.
The heart seeks a pure goodness, like the song said [b] "I've been searching for a heart of gold. And I gettin old."
In Jesus Christ men and women can find "a heart of gold".
And the suffering of being alienated from the life of God so eases. He comes into the heart to end the lonely torment of being "Fatherless" in His creation.[/b]
Not everybody. Most of us [who don't worry too much about 'why'] are busy living in the real world.
The heart seeks a pure goodness, like the song said "I've been searching for a heart of gold. And I gettin old."
In Jesus Christ men and women can find "a heart of gold".
And the suffering of being alienated from the life of God so eases. He comes into the heart to end the lonely torment of being "Fatherless" in His creation.
Eh? Like Pat Robinson, who just have a heart of gold full of pure goodness. At least he found his Jesus and some gold. Pure goodness ... Not so much.
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24 Oct 14
2 edits
Originally posted by Lundos
Eh? Like Pat Robinson, who just have a heart of gold full of pure goodness. At least he found his Jesus and some gold. Pure goodness ... Not so much.
I wonder how many people heard Jesus tell them "Follow Me", then looked around for a handy discouraging example among the Pharisees or Saducees to rationalize not to follow Jesus..
Are you saying if you follow Jesus you will immediately lose all self control and will up conforming to Pat Robertson's errors ? I never had that fear. I found Christ's indwelling life more powerful than the example of Elmer Gantry.
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24 Oct 14
Originally posted by Lundos
Not everybody. Most of us [who don't worry too much about 'why'] are busy living in the real world.
I notice that you have three of four replies going on different topics.
You are taking some valuable time off from "the real world" to browse Spirituality discussions ?
Originally posted by sonshipInteracting with people who have different belief systems is very much a real world and real life activity.Not everybody. Most of us [who don't worry too much about 'why'] are busy living in the real world.
I notice that you have three of four replies going on different topics.
You are taking some valuable time off from "the real world" to browse Spirituality discussions ?
25 Oct 14
Originally posted by sonshipThis is that old chestnut "What is the meaning of life"
It is suffering enough just to be without knowing who one is or why one lives. To rise in the morning and wrestle with the questions of "Who am I and Why am I here in the universe?" only to retire the same evening empty of any solid answer, is itself a torment.
A question which makes no sense unless you can
determine that life has a meaning.
You and your self-important buddies continually
want to assign special meaning to your lives when
there is absolutely no reason to do so.
25 Oct 14
Originally posted by sonshipI am sorry to hear that you wrestle with feelings of emptiness and have to keep them at bay with religiosity.
It is suffering enough just to be without knowing who one is or why one lives. To rise in the morning and wrestle with the questions of "Who am I and Why am I here in the universe?" only to retire the same evening empty of any solid answer, is itself a torment.
25 Oct 14
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipWho were you referring to if not yourself in the part of your comment I was replying to? You have misread my words if you think they are sarcastic. I think they are more on target than you will ever admit.
I am so sorry that you have nothing better than a little sarcasm as a reply.