22 Oct 14
Originally posted by sonshipYou have not been able to defend your "eternal torture" ideology from a moral standpoint. It is you ~ and the profane philosophy you propagate (which my "caricature" encapsulates very well) ~ that I am accusing, not a "God".
This caricature and accusation of God stands as a testament of how deceived the fallen soul of Adam's race can be.
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22 Oct 14
Originally posted by FMFThe life of Jesus is sufficient to more than defend the entire Gospel message.
You have not been able to defend your "eternal torture" ideology from a moral standpoint. It is you ~ and the profane philosophy you propagate (which my "caricature" encapsulates very well) ~ that I am accusing, not a "God".
Originally posted by sonshipOne person being executed by the Romans a couple of thousand years ago justifies the torturing billions of people forever? What a truly grim and perverse cranny of the human condition your imagination has lodged itself in.
The life of Jesus is sufficient to more than defend the [b] entire Gospel message.[/b]
22 Oct 14
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipAre you saying that you don't understand the theological difference between how God deals with mankind and how God deals with angelic beings?
So then you propose to explain how God's mercy endures forever to (in your own theology of annhilationism now) those who undergo the "eternal punishment" of annihilation?
Explain.
Originally posted by sonshipIt is without your addition of a God who decided a one point during creation not just to exact judgment but to extend that punishment for all eternity by keeping those condemned alive forever, sustained in a purpose built fire pit where they will be broiled alive while Jesus and his angels watch.
The life of Jesus is sufficient to more than defend the [b] entire Gospel message.[/b]
Your determination to defend this belief about God when it is not required for salvation or the "normal" Christian life is indicative of how warped your sense of God's nature has become. Of course you need this barbaric horror-belief to help you maintain your forgiveness perspective of those who mistreat you.
YUK.
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22 Oct 14
Originally posted by divegeesterNo. But the final fate of the devil and his angels and the lost humans in Matthew 25 is the same.
Are you saying that you don't understand the theological difference between how God deals with mankind and how God deals with angelic beings?
In Matthew 25:41 - "Then He will say also to those on the left, Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
1.) The punishment was "prepared for the devil and his angels".
2.) The human beings to which Christ is speaking partake of the same fate which was prepared for the devil and his angels.
3.) However you interpret "eternal fire" of verse 41 it is definitely the "eternal punishment" of verse 46 . And the lost rebel humans and the devil and his angels co-share the same destiny there.
4.) The example confirms this to a significant degree in Revelation 20:10 where the Antichrist and the false prophet (humans) are joined in the lake of fire by Satan. And together "THEY will be tormented ...".
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22 Oct 14
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Originally posted by divegeester
It is without your addition of a God who decided a one point during creation not just to exact judgment but to extend that punishment for all eternity by keeping those condemned alive forever, sustained in a purpose built fire pit where they will be broiled alive while Jesus and his angels watch.
Your determination to defend this belief about God whe ...[text shortened]... ror-belief to help you maintain your forgiveness perspective of those who mistreat you.
YUK.
It is without your addition of a God who decided a one point during creation not just to exact judgment but to extend that punishment for all eternity by keeping those condemned alive forever, sustained in a purpose built fire pit where they will be broiled alive while Jesus and his angels watch.
This is one of your favorite quips. You like to give the impression that Christ and His angels have nothing better to do for all eternity but what is mentioned in Revelation 14:10.
Because it says " and he shall be tormented in fire and brimestone before the holy angels and before the Lamb" you like to cash in as much as you can to argue Christ has nothing else to do forever. IE. "Jesus and His angels do nothing else but gloat over the burning of Antichrist and followers forever."
I take also the vaster number of verses showing Jesus is doing more than gazing into the punishing place.
" ... and He who sits upon the throne will tabernacle over them... For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and guide them to springs of waters of life; and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes." (Rev. 7:15,17)
Your sadistic portrayal of Jesus and angels having nothing else to do forever may be good special effects for arguing annhilationism. But it doesn't work so well for us who read the full account of His will in eternity.
I think the purpose of God's word telling of that Antichrist his followers will be tormented in the presence of the angels and of "the Lamb" has another purpose. The God that these enemies are fighting against BECAME the Redeemer - the Lamb.
The God and Creator, the King of all being humbled Himself to be the Redeeming Lamb that they might have been saved. Their unmitigated revolt is met firstly by God's extensive plan of salvation. But because they prove themselves beyond recovery they are met with unmitigated divine vengeance.
But the fate of all who have died has always been wide open to the inspection of God who sees all places. The Bible speaks of the place of souls as in a sense "Before the Lord". Sheol is covered to men's eyes but naked before God (Job 26:6; Proverbs 15:11)
This doesn't mean God has done nothing else throughout the ages but stand around gazing into Hell, Hades (Sheol). And neither should we take Revelation 14:10 to mean watching the punishment of these enemies is the sole and only activity of the angels and the Lamb.
Once again, notice how the Scripture shows one of the wrath pouring angels led John away to see the MAIN attraction - New Jerusalem.
"And one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with mee, saying, Come here: I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb ... And he carried me away in spirit ... and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God ..." (See Rev. 21:9-11)
So if you want to portray us who take these revelations as seeking a front row seat with Christ and His angels so we too can watch the burning up of Antichrist and his followers, I think that's mostly emotional special effects.
Your determination to defend this belief about God when it is not required for salvation or the "normal" Christian life is indicative of how warped your sense of God's nature has become. Of course you need this barbaric horror-belief to help you maintain your forgiveness perspective of those who mistreat you.
I take no second place to anyone posting on this Forum in writing thousands of words about the positive aspects of God's full salvation. I am ready to drop the matter. But as long as you want the parting shot before moving on of accusing me of being warped and barbaric, I am likely to object.
Call Revelation 14:10 horrible, terrible, beyond description in its horrors - ghastly. I fully agree with you. It IS terrible.
The TERRIBLE exists in the Bible for the unrecoverable sinner.
And don't expect me to easily let you have your parting shot of false accusation before switching to an understandably more positive topic.
I see you have gone back to squeeze a little more juice out of the - "I forgive because they are going to burn forever" caricature.
I don't think further comment on what I meant is needed. If its just TOO GOOD to you to comprehend the fourth sentence - that ALL deserve to be prayed for that ALL be saved according to God's desire, then you just insist on not well understanding me.
God does say that judgment is His strange work, as if it is strange for God that He should have to judge. But it is nonetheless a work that He will do.
Isaiah 28:21
English Standard Version
For the LORD will rise up as on Mount Perazim; as in the Valley of Gibeon he will be roused; to do his deed— strange is his deed! and to work his work—alien is his work!
New American Standard Bible
For the LORD will rise up as at Mount Perazim, He will be stirred up as in the valley of Gibeon, To do His task, His unusual task, And to work His work, His extraordinary work.
King James Bible
For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.
To judge His creatures is a strange work for God to have to do. But He will do it.
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22 Oct 14
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Note to all Christians who take the word of God's eternal judgment at face value:
Annihilationists and Universalists often like to manuevor you into a position in which you appear to be eager that people be lost forever. I have seen this before.
"If you defend the face value statements of God on eternal damnation, that of course means you are eager for sinners to be burned for your gloating pleasure."
You see, if you don't buy Universalism or Annhilationism then you want people to be tormented. That's the insinuation of many of them.
22 Oct 14
Originally posted by sonshipNot necessarily true. The insinuation is that you are okay with it. That’s the messed up part.
Note to all Christians who take the word of God's eternal judgment at face value:
Annihilationists and Universalists often like to manuevor you into a position in which you appear to be eager that people be lost forever. I have seen this before.
"If you defend the face value statements of God on eternal damnation, that of course means you are ea ...[text shortened]... ilationism then you [i]want people to be tormented. That's the insinuation of many of them.
22 Oct 14
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipI don't have time for the detail right now but let me just say this; I do NOT think you personally are warped or barbaric ,so please don't twist my words. I think this particular barbaric belief which you hold as being true, has warped your personal view of YOUR forgiveness.It is without your addition of a God who decided a one point during creation not just to exact judgment but to extend that punishment for all eternity by keeping those condemned alive forever, sustained in a purpose built fire pit where they will be broiled alive while Jesus and his angels watch.
This is one of your favorite quips. You l ...[text shortened]...
[/quote]
To judge His creatures is a strange work for God to have to do. But He will do it.
To be clear I think YOU are a vey genuine and sincere Christian who has spent far more time than me in devotional activity. Nevertheless, I take issue with you on this belief about eternal suffering and my adjectives are directed at the belief, not about you in entirety nor in fact in the majority of your being.
I trust that clarifies and focuses my contention?
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22 Oct 14
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Originally posted by Great King Rat
Not necessarily true. The insinuation is that you are okay with it. That’s the messed up part.
Not necessarily true. The insinuation is that you are okay with it. That’s the messed up part.
I don't like the concept of never ending suffering.
You do not believe me. But I think NO human being could POSSIBLY be fond of such a concept.
So read my pixels - I DON'T LIKE IT.
But we human beings have fallen from such a great height. In God's salvation He is transforming the saved to be brothers of the Firstborn Son of God.
My destiny is to be like Christ in thought, in attitude, in taste " We know that if He is manifested, we will be like Him for we shall see Him even as He is." (1 John 3:2)
He is transforming the saved into His same image from one degree of expression to another, to another, to another - level by level into the same image -
"But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit." (2 Cor. 3:18)
My thoughts will arrive some day to match the thoughts of the Son of God.
I may not like His sentence on the those who are to be lost. But I will share the Son's attitude. The distance between my fallen concept and that of the Perfect Man, the God-man Jesus is being shortened. I expect to finally see through His eyes the matter.
Today while I don't care if Satan is tormented forever, I think endless suffering may be too severe for people. I do not trust my imagination as to what I think ought to be done by God to me for rejecting Him.
I do not know either the implications of there being beings in a new universes in which righteousness dwells, who are able to convene and spread their influence.
I do not know what effect of an evil action has on the fabric of eternity. Maybe it is better for the coming world that the opposition party to God be totally pre-occupied with the solitary confinement of endless misery.
Maybe there will be levels of chastisement so that the lesser level would be as heaven compared to the lowest level. How do I know? When in the parable Jesus said to bind up the tares into bundles to be burned, it could imply different groups - "bundles" according to different degrees of severity of suffering. I am not so curious as to want to be lost forever in order to find out.
But we look for a new heaven and a new earth in which all your neighbors will have been transformed to be like Jesus Christ. And they shall reign forever and ever.
"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be God to him, and he will be a son to Me." (Rev. 21:7)
Why to maintain such a world forever, God has to cause the lost to suffer away from it all endlessly, I do not fully know. The day may come when I am fully transformed into His image that I will see and fully agree.
But at present I believe in something that I do not like.
Look at your past life. Look at some of the things you said, you did, you reasoned and performed.
Why should you think that you and God will always agree?
Has the trail you have left behind you in life argue that there is never any discrepancy between your ideas and those of God's?
I expect that a Book from God communicating His will to mankind would contain SOME things we would not approve of.
(I said SOME things.)
22 Oct 14
Originally posted by sonshipMan... these walls of text. Succinctness is not a bad quality, you know.Not necessarily true. The insinuation is that you are okay with it. That’s the messed up part.
I don't like the concept of never ending suffering.
You do not believe me. But I think NO human being could POSSIBLY be fond of such a concept.
So read my pixels - [b]I DON'T LIKE IT.
But we human beings have fallen from suc ...[text shortened]... kind would contain SOME things we would not approve of.
(I said SOME things.)[/b]
You love god who will torture people forever. You love him. Think about that for a while.
22 Oct 14
Originally posted by sonshipYou've obviously missed the point. The objection you need to worry about is not that you approve of such torment or that you hold a position of callousness toward it. The objection you need to worry about is that such a program of punishment is not consistent with the attributes that you ascribe to God. It constitutes a perversion of concepts like justice and love and the like. Somehow you don't get this obvious point; or, more likely, you do intuit this point but shove it under the proverbial rug, somehow convincing yourself that it is some mysterious aspect of the divine nature that confounds.
Note to all Christians who take the word of God's eternal judgment at face value:
Annihilationists and Universalists often like to manuevor you into a position in which you appear to be eager that people be lost forever. I have seen this before.
"If you defend the face value statements of God on eternal damnation, that of course means you are ea ...[text shortened]... ilationism then you [i]want people to be tormented. That's the insinuation of many of them.
22 Oct 14
Originally posted by Great King Rat"You love god who will torture people forever."
Man... these walls of text. Succinctness is not a bad quality, you know.
You love god who will torture people forever. You love him. Think about that for a while.
God isn't going to torture anyone. Your understanding of God is twisted.
You do realize that don't you?