01 Jan 22
@ghost-of-a-duke saidI'm intrigued, so I will wait.
He has 9 hours of reflection remaining...
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01 Jan 22
@rajk999 saidI have seen this, and it is difficult and easy to see why it’s hard to believe. I would also say it’s very abused by some for money also discrediting it.
I personally would put no trust is what Christians call proof in this matter. I would have to see it for myself. So far I have witnessed these things and it's all nonsensical gibberish.
A friend of mine for over ten years is a Pentecostal preacher and his father there before him of a small, poor, country church where faith, honesty and keeping the word is very important down to long dresses, sleeves and on. They are all like a very strong loving family that trust and takes care of one another no matter the time or day. They bake and sell and things of this nature if extra money is needed for someone etc..
Anyway nothing is fake with them, they were raised seeing and doing this and it isn’t something they force it has to be natural for them when it happens. I will also say they are very truthful and sincere about their faith.
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01 Jan 22
@pb1022 saidFirstly, Jesus did say believers would speak in tongues, but of course, meant a shared human language (the sole meaning of talking in tongues) to enable evangelizing. Mark 16:17:
Did you read my reply to that?
The Holy Spirit had not been given to believers to indwell them until well after Jesus Christ said that.
"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues."
But your real problem here is that Christ, "the Word made Flesh" (John 1:14) is infallible and when asked by his disciples how to pray, made clear what was required. (Luke 11:1-4). Your view clearly undermines this, that these early prayers to God were somehow insufficient, that Jesus himself was an incomplete teacher.
In truth, Jesus was conveying the simplicity of prayer, that it was something anyone could do. You seek to displant this infallible guidance from Christ and effectively say, 'no prayer is not simple. We need to have the Holy Spirit pray for us.'
@mike69 saidWell, what you describe is a typical family in a poor country. In a rich country you might be impressed by that that lifestyle but it is commonplace where Im from.
I have seen this, and it is difficult and easy to see why it’s hard to believe. I would also say it’s very abused by some for money also discrediting it.
A friend of mine for over ten years is a Pentecostal preacher and his father there before him of a small, poor, country church where faith, honesty and keeping the word is very important down to long dresses, sleeves and ...[text shortened]... ral for them when it happens. I will also say they are very truthful and sincere about their faith.
Jesus said that the proof of a charitable person is when you give without receiving or wanting anything in return, so really and truly families do not count, since they help and care for each other.
As for the speaking in tongues [which is simply another language or means of communicating] , this only is useful if there is an interpretation of what is said otherwise it is useless to others around. My parents spoke Hindi between them so that we as kids could not understand. That is fine for them and there is no virtue in that neither any benefit to others.
In a nutshell speaking in tongues in churches is a mostly a sham and done for show. It is as bad as the fake healing that goes on in churches which has been proven to be orchestrated and pure acting.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidHere is another. Jesus told people to live rightously, do good works and keep the commandments. They now claim since they have professed faith, it is the Holy Spirit that cleanses them from sin, and they have nothing to do. But Paul and James said otherwise:
Firstly, Jesus did say believers would speak in tongues, but of course, meant a shared human language (the sole meaning of talking in tongues) to enable evangelizing. Mark 16:17:
"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues."
But your real problem here is that Christ, "the Word made Fle ...[text shortened]... Christ and effectively say, 'no prayer is not simple. We need to have the Holy Spirit pray for us.'
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. (2 Corinthians 7:1 KJV)
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.(James 4:8 KJV)
Paul and James is saying that they have to do it themselves. Their constant boasting of the Holy Spirit and the DO NOTHING doctrine is the way to damnation.
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01 Jan 22
@Rajk999
The family is many families together in one place that each connect to the other church families around and far to come together in larger sharing and other ways. This lifestyle is common around me and as I live although a lot of growth is here now and still coming because of a large cheap workforce in part. I think your reading a little too much into my post along with thinking the whole country is rich and privileged is hard for me to grasp.
01 Jan 22
@rajk999 saidTrusting that you can make God accept you by your efforts is a way to damnation as well. It is Jesus who cleans us of our sins, Jesus sent to Holy Spirit to us, now your personal Jesus may not have done that, but that Jesus is of your own making and only does those things you approve of nothing more nothing less. He is a created Jesus by your admission; you think god did it sometime in the past when that is not true, your Jesus was created by you when you decided he can only do the things you approve of, including what God does with us and the Holy Spirit as well in your little world.
Here is another. Jesus told people to live rightously, do good works and keep the commandments. They now claim since they have professed faith, it is the Holy Spirit that cleanses them from sin, and they have nothing to do. But Paul and James said otherwise:
[i]Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, [b]let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh an ...[text shortened]... ves. Their constant boasting of the Holy Spirit and the DO NOTHING doctrine is the way to damnation.
01 Jan 22
@kellyjay saidIf you are on a chess site, paying no dues, at least play some chess and shut your mouth.
Trusting that you can make God accept you by your efforts is a way to damnation as well. It is Jesus who cleans us of our sins, Jesus sent to Holy Spirit to us, now your personal Jesus may not have done that, but that Jesus is of your own making and only does those things you approve of nothing more nothing less. He is a created Jesus by your admission; you think god did it ...[text shortened]... gs you approve of, including what God does with us and the Holy Spirit as well in your little world.
01 Jan 22
@mike69 saidI understand your point. Small churches and families are always close and live like one. The help and assist each other. This is a separate matter from how strangers or outsiders are treated. The test of true charity and brotherly love is when this hospitality is extended to those outside of their group. This is probably hard for some to grasp.
@Rajk999
The family is many families together in one place that each connect to the other church families around and far to come together in larger sharing and other ways. This lifestyle is common around me and as I live although a lot of growth is here now and still coming because of a large cheap workforce in part. I think your reading a little too much into my post along with thinking the whole country is rich and privileged is hard for me to grasp.
01 Jan 22
@rajk999 saidCare for a game of chess? I'm open to anyone who wishes to play. I get a few games in here and there. Your universe, your god is of your own making; you do seem to have issues when both the Bible and others don't fit or agree with your points of view on anything; it's either your point of view or insults and sulking away.
If you are on a chess site, paying no dues, at least play some chess and shut your mouth.
01 Jan 22
@kellyjay saidYour constant repetition of the same nonsense makes you a bore. Say something that Jesus said about righteousness and good works and then maybe that might make you an interesting poster.
Care for a game of chess? I'm open to anyone who wishes to play. I get a few games in here and there. Your universe, your god is of your own making; you do seem to have issues when both the Bible and others don't fit or agree with your points of view on anything; it's either your point of view or insults and sulking away.
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01 Jan 22
@ghost-of-a-duke saidFirst, that verse from the Gospel of Mark that you quoted is after Jesus Christ’s Resurrection and immediately prior to His ascension into Heaven. And let’s look at the verses immediately before it:
Firstly, Jesus did say believers would speak in tongues, but of course, meant a shared human language (the sole meaning of talking in tongues) to enable evangelizing. Mark 16:17:
"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues."
But your real problem here is that Christ, "the Word made Fle ...[text shortened]... Christ and effectively say, 'no prayer is not simple. We need to have the Holy Spirit pray for us.'
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;”
(Mark 16:15-17)
I wonder what rajk999 has to say about those first two verses!
And the verse you quoted says believers will speak with new tongues. It doesn’t say, at least as far as I can see, for what purpose they will speak with new tongues.
But as I said before, I’m aware that the disciples, under the power of the Holy Spirit, did speak in a human language they did not know in order to spread the Gospel. I don’t think that’s the same as praying in tongues.
And praying in tongues (also known as praying in the Spirit) is simple! Much simpler, imo, that praying with the understanding, when you have to think of what to pray for and the words to use.
I am not in favor of anyone exclusively praying in tongues. But I see value in praying in tongues (praying in the Spirit) as a supplement to praying with the understanding.
The Apostle Paul did both.
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@ghost-of-a-duke saidThe most obvious reason to pray in tongues (pray in the Spirit) is that our human understanding of what is best for us is limited. We therefore may not know what to pray for.
Firstly, Jesus did say believers would speak in tongues, but of course, meant a shared human language (the sole meaning of talking in tongues) to enable evangelizing. Mark 16:17:
"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues."
But your real problem here is that Christ, "the Word made Fle ...[text shortened]... Christ and effectively say, 'no prayer is not simple. We need to have the Holy Spirit pray for us.'
The principle of praying in tongues is no different than saying “Thy will be done” in the Lord’s Prayer. You’re acknowledging God knows more than you and has your best interests at heart.
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01 Jan 22
@rajk999 said<<In a nutshell speaking in tongues in churches is a mostly a sham and done for show. It is as bad as the fake healing that goes on in churches which has been proven to be orchestrated and pure acting.>>
Well, what you describe is a typical family in a poor country. In a rich country you might be impressed by that that lifestyle but it is commonplace where Im from.
Jesus said that the proof of a charitable person is when you give without receiving or wanting anything in return, so really and truly families do not count, since they help and care for each other.
As for ...[text shortened]... the fake healing that goes on in churches which has been proven to be orchestrated and pure acting.
I’m talking about praying in tongues (praying in the Spirit) in private. What I’m talking about has nothing to do with the church or any public demonstration.
01 Jan 22
@pb1022 saidWhy wonder what I have to say. Wonder what Jesus said. He said you still have to keep the commandments... regardless. Blessed are those who keep the commandments.
First, that verse from the Gospel of Mark that you quoted is after Jesus Christ’s Resurrection and immediately prior to His ascension into Heaven. And let’s look at the verses immediately before it:
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall b ...[text shortened]... ying in the Spirit) as a supplement to praying with the understanding.
The Apostle Paul did both.