18 Apr 07
Originally posted by NimzovichLarsenLet me get this straight. You have difficulty understanding why I think that matter -- something
sorry don't remember what your question was. I'm still trying to grasp how someone can believe matter has existed forever with no starting point. That is so illogical my head is starting to hurt. How could there never have been a starting point? and what would that make the point of life at all? I just wonder how someone can think everything the ...[text shortened]... time if you really think about it) for no rhyme or reason. wow man, you have my sympathies.
we know exists, we can touch or detect -- is uncreated -- something which we can prove?
A circle has no starting point. If the current universe's birth was simply part of a cycle, how hard
is that to conceive? Why does this make your brain hurt?
And what does that have to do with 'the point of life?' We're talking about universe, not philosophy.
If time is infinite (and there is no reason to disbelieve that), then that, over the course of an infinite
cycle of universe births and deaths, the likelihood that one will have life in it is pretty probable.
Frankly, I see no reason to statistically disbelieve that there is life on other planets.
I guess for someone like you it's just easier to believe that some 'Uncreated Entity' magically whipped
up a universe, just for you. Because you define this entity as Uncreated and you define
the universe as created this causes you strain. I define the universe as uncreated. I do so
because there is no evidence to suggest that matter/energy can be created and no evidence to
exclude a cyclical nature of universe creation. You add an entity which defies everything that we
know just so you can feel comfortable that you 'have a point' or a 'meaning.'
You are the one worthy of sympathy.
Nemesio
18 Apr 07
Originally posted by whodeyAnd then by the same logic claiming that the Earth isn't billions of years old is illogical because there is evidence showing that it is. Correct?
It would if there was no other input on the matter. However, people today tell you that it is not flat and give you pictures of the earth to show you that it is not flat and have created mathmatical equations prooving that it is not flat etc. You now have other evidences that counter the evidences that it is flat.
18 Apr 07
1 edit
Originally posted by NemesioThat's not true, is it? Isn't the starting point of circle the instant "before" circle?
A circle has no starting point. If the current universe's birth was simply part of a cycle, how hard
is that to conceive? Why does this make your brain hurt?
And what does that have to do with 'the point of life?' We're talking about universe, not philosophy.
If time is infinite (and there is no reason to disbelieve that), then that, over the cours you 'have a point' or a 'meaning.'
You are the one worthy of sympathy.
Nemesio
You've got no circle .. then, circle.
The circle came from somewhere .. it was created.
.........................
Time is infinite, but it had to have a starting point,
That would be, the instant "before" time.
Time too is a creation.
....................................
The "Uncreated Entity" is the real stumper though.
Did it create itself?
From what?
How?
Seems we don't know the First Cause.
Accident created from nothing?
Always (?) been something and created from that .. by accident?
A God created Himself, from nothing, and then got bored .. thus .. us?
OR your answer .. The universe is uncreated.
This requires faith in the prop. that the universe always was. OR simply gives up trying to explain the "beginning"
18 Apr 07
Originally posted by jammerA circle does not have a beginning within the dimension of the line following the circumference of the circle. If you want to propose other dimensions and give it a beginning and end in those dimensions well and good but make it clear that, that is what you are doing.
That's not true, is it? Isn't the starting point of circle the instant "before" circle?
You've got no circle .. then, circle.
If time is a circle then time has no beginning.
Whether time is infinite or not, it is meaningless to talk about "before time".
18 Apr 07
Originally posted by Zander 88Some of the things that the "Does God Exist" page asks you to consider:
http://www.big-bang-theory.com/
Easy to read and understand. Perhaps it is reasonable to assume we will never know how the big bang came to form, since there is no way to gain evidence outside the universe? I don't know, something to think about.
Oh yeah, make sure click and read the "Does God exist" link at the bottom. There are some good points.
* Discoveries in astronomy have shown beyond a reasonable doubt that the universe did, in fact, have a beginning. There was a single moment of creation.
All that this gives us is a reasonable assumption that there was a beginning to this universe. Nothing more. It certainly is not evidence for the truth of any particular human religion.
* Advances in molecular biology have revealed vast amounts of information encoded in each and every living cell, and molecular biologists have discovered thousands upon thousands of exquisitely designed machines at the molecular level. Information requires intelligence and design requires a designer.
As has been discussed at length in the Evolution thread, such design does not require a designer and many examples of bad design are also found in the natural world such as would be expected of the non-intelligent process described by the Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection. This is not evidence of a God (certainly not of the god of any particular human religion).
* Biochemists and mathematicians have calculated the odds against life arising from non-life naturally via unintelligent processes. The odds are astronomical. In fact, scientists aren't even sure if life could have evolved naturally via unintelligent processes. If life did not arise by chance, how did it arise?
The odds may be astronomical, however this universe is 14 billion years old and may well contain billions of planets and habitats in which life could have come about. Astronomically unlikely events will occur in such a large and long lived environment. This is not evidence of a God (certainly not of the god of any particular human religion).
* The universe is ordered by natural laws. Where did these laws come from and what purpose do they serve?
There are hypotheses that suggest infinite universes with infinite variation in their properties, an infinite subset of which could support life. Not a very compelling responce, I will admit. Can anyone else on the forum expand on this? I'm sure it's been discussed before.
* Philosophers agree that a transcendent Law Giver is the only plausible explanation for an objective moral standard. So, ask yourself if you believe in right and wrong and then ask yourself why. Who gave you your conscience? Why does it exist?
Some philosophers agree... Many others suggest that there is no objective moral standard. There are / were cannibal tribes in africa. Some cultures believe there is a moral necessity to kill women who attempt to escape forced marriages. Not so long ago it was considered perfectly moral to keep slaves. There is much evidence that morallity, far from being objective and handed to us by a deity, is a constantly changing cultural phenomenon.
* People of every race, creed, color, and culture, both men and women, young and old, wise and foolish, from the educated to the ignorant, claim to have personally experienced something of the supernatural. So what are we supposed to do with these prodigious accounts of divine healing, prophetic revelation, answered prayer, and other miraculous phenomena? Ignorance and imagination may have played a part to be sure, but is there something more?
What we should do with them is try to examine them objectively. The best way we have to do things objectively is through the scientific method. Whenever this has been applied, the supernatural explanations have given way to purely natural ones.
None of the questions this page asks really suggest a supernatural deity, and they certainly do not point to the deity any particular human religion. The sites suggests that we approach the question from a purely neutral position. But the link at the bottom of the page leads to a page on the Bible. The site is clearly not neutral since it picks on one particular religion above all others.
Looking around the rest of the site, it's a Christian creationist site through and through, spouting the same arguments. Move along now, nothing to see here.
--- Penguin. (donning flame-proof underwear)
18 Apr 07
Originally posted by Penguin* The universe is ordered by natural laws. Where did these laws come from and what purpose do they serve?
Some of the things that the "Does God Exist" page asks you to consider:
[b]* Discoveries in astronomy have shown beyond a reasonable doubt that the universe did, in fact, have a beginning. There was a single moment of creation.
All that this gives us is a reasonable assumption that there was a beginning to this universe. Nothing more. It certainly ...[text shortened]... ents. Move along now, nothing to see here.
--- Penguin. (donning flame-proof underwear)[/b]
The supposed strength of this point is based on a false analogy with human laws (which require a lawgiver, and have a purpose or point). However to speak of laws in nature need mean nothing more than that there are regularities and patterns that can be used to predict future events.
* Philosophers agree that a transcendent Law Giver is the only plausible explanation for an objective moral standard.
That's utterly wrong, and profoundly ignorant of moral philosophy through the ages.
18 Apr 07
1 edit
Originally posted by Nemesioit's amazing how obtuse you are. The universe's birth was part of a cycle? With no creater these cycles have just existed forever? Tell me where these cycles came from . Where did the initial matter come from? Don't tell me it's been here forever, that's a cop out. You cannot simply say matter has been in the universe for eternity with no explanation of what produced this matter. The matter that existed prior to the big bang came from somewhere, where?
Let me get this straight. You have difficulty understanding why I think that matter -- something
we know exists, we can touch or detect -- is uncreated -- something which we can prove?
A circle has no starting point. If the current universe's birth was simply part of a cycle, how hard
is that to conceive? Why does this make your brain hurt?
And wh you 'have a point' or a 'meaning.'
You are the one worthy of sympathy.
Nemesio
18 Apr 07
Originally posted by PenguinAs to the "natural laws", I'm not sure what he's referring to. Bbarr and I once had a discussion regarding the fact that minor differences in the relative strengths of the basic forces in the universe (gravity, electromagnetic, strong and weak) would have meant a universe totally inhospitable to life throughout the entire universe and what, if any, inferences can be drawn from this. It's at http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=22381&page=1
Some of the things that the "Does God Exist" page asks you to consider:
[b]* Discoveries in astronomy have shown beyond a reasonable doubt that the universe did, in fact, have a beginning. There was a single moment of creation.
All that this gives us is a reasonable assumption that there was a beginning to this universe. Nothing more. It certainly ...[text shortened]... ents. Move along now, nothing to see here.
--- Penguin. (donning flame-proof underwear)[/b]
18 Apr 07
Originally posted by NimzovichLarsenWhere'd God come from? Please read Rwingo's post on the other page until you understand it.
it's amazing how obtuse you are. The universe's birth was part of a cycle? With no creater these cycles have just existed forever? Tell me where these cycles came from . Where did the initial matter come from? Don't tell me it's been here forever, that's a cop out. You cannot simply say matter has been in the universe for eternity with no expla ...[text shortened]... uced this matter. The matter that existed prior to the big bang came from somewhere, where?
18 Apr 07
Originally posted by NimzovichLarsenit's amazing how obtuse you are. Your god has just existed forever? Tell me where he came from. Don't tell me he's been here forever, that's a cop out. You cannot simply say he has been in the universe for eternity with no explanation of what produced him.
it's amazing how obtuse you are. The universe's birth was part of a cycle? With no creater these cycles have just existed forever? Tell me where these cycles came from . Where did the initial matter come from? Don't tell me it's been here forever, that's a cop out. You cannot simply say matter has been in the universe for eternity with no expla ...[text shortened]... uced this matter. The matter that existed prior to the big bang came from somewhere, where?
Postulating a god as the cause of the universe doesn't solve anything. On the contrary, it raises more questions than it answers.
18 Apr 07
Originally posted by rwingettmy answer to where the universe came from is simply that there was a creator. Our universe and everything we know was created by God. Thus, since He created our universe the question about "what created him" is meaningless as He is the creator. Your explanation is there was no creator but you have no answer then for where the universe came from. You answer it with a question to which I have answered. You simply have no answer.
it's amazing how obtuse you are. Your god has just existed forever? Tell me where he came from. Don't tell me he's been here forever, that's a cop out. You cannot simply say he has been in the universe for eternity with no explanation of what produced him.
Postulating a god as the cause of the universe doesn't solve anything. On the contrary, it raises more questions than it answers.
18 Apr 07
1 edit
Originally posted by NimzovichLarsenNow replace the word creator with cycle, or for that matter ice cream, pony or skyscraper and you have exactly the same meaningless outcome.
my answer to where the universe came from is simply that there was a creator. Our universe and everything we know was created by God. Thus, since He created our universe the question about "what created him" is meaningless as He is the creator. Your explanation is there was no creator but you have no answer then for where the universe came from. You answer it with a question to which I have answered. You simply have no answer.
18 Apr 07
Originally posted by NimzovichLarsenAnd you have no answer to the question where did God come from. So you've only kicked the can down the road.
my answer to where the universe came from is simply that there was a creator. Our universe and everything we know was created by God. Thus, since He created our universe the question about "what created him" is meaningless as He is the creator. Your explanation is there was no creator but you have no answer then for where the universe came from. You answer it with a question to which I have answered. You simply have no answer.