New Testament

Originally posted by stellspalfie
is there ever any explanation given as to how the errors were made? is it mistranslated text from the bible or maybe an error in understanding correct text?

yes its an error in understanding the text, mistranslations don't really occur. They
occur because knowledge is partial at the time, or misconstrued, or something which
was though important is not, or something that is important comes to light which was
seemingly insignificant or thought to be unrelated. Let us not forget that we inherited
no doctrines from the so called church fathers, we started off in a room with a few
individuals looking at the Bible from an unbiased perspective, noting down what it stated
and trying to draw conclusions, its not an easy task, if you think it is, may i suggest you
try it yourself 🙂

Originally posted by galveston75
Where is it said in the Bible that God only works thru perfect humans? Were any humans that Jesus taught and worked with perfect? Did they make mistakes or not and did they always understand what Jesus said to them?
Why does one have to be perfect in your eyes to be used by God?

for me personally i would find it hard to commit myself to a 'understanding' if previous 'understandings' had been errors. i would have a nagging voice in my head saying 'what if this is wrong, what if its just a mistake like the others'. especially when it comes to serious issues such as abortion, violence and blood transfusions.

how would a parent who's lost a child in the past due to refusing blood feel if in 20 years time the elders have new understandings that say its okay to receive blood.

unless there is a change in your process that eradicates errors then how can a follower be any more confident?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes its an error in understanding the text, mistranslations don't really occur. They
occur because knowledge is partial at the time, or misconstrued, or something which
was though important is not, or something that is important comes to light which was
seemingly insignificant or thought to be unrelated. Let us not forget that we inherited
...[text shortened]... w conclusions, its not an easy task, if you think it is, may i suggest you
try it yourself 🙂

its not an easy task, if you think it is, may i suggest you
try it yourself

i agree its an almost impossible task. in fact i would assume i think its more difficult than you do. translating the text is difficult. but trying to apply meaning to ancient metaphors, similes and analogies is impossible without being bias. every generation has a certain way of thinking and cannot help but place their own sensibilities in the meanings.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
for me personally i would find it hard to commit myself to a 'understanding' if previous 'understandings' had been errors. i would have a nagging voice in my head saying 'what if this is wrong, what if its just a mistake like the others'. especially when it comes to serious issues such as abortion, violence and blood transfusions.

how would a parent ...[text shortened]... nge in your process that eradicates errors then how can a follower be any more confident?

ok, then go your own way, i have no issues with it, infact i think its rather refreshing
that we revise our teaching constantly, its demonstrates a willingness to learn from
ones mistakes, which takes humility. Hypothetical and emotive imaginary scenario's
are a very weak reason, reality is much more potent litmus test and we are doing just
fine. Confidence is found in the application of Biblical principles, if one applies them
and they work, ones confidence grows, after all, wisdom is proven righteous by its
works.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
[b]its not an easy task, if you think it is, may i suggest you
try it yourself

i agree its an almost impossible task. in fact i would assume i think its more difficult than you do. translating the text is difficult. but trying to apply meaning to ancient metaphors, similes and analogies is impossible without being bias. every generation has a certain way of thinking and cannot help but place their own sensibilities in the meanings.[/b]

This may be the case but principles are so far reaching that they can be applied in all
manner of situations, seemingly unrelated at first.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
ok, then go your own way, i have no issues with it, infact i think its rather refreshing
that we revise our teaching constantly, its demonstrates a willingness to learn from
ones mistakes, which takes humility. Hypothetical and emotive imaginary scenario's
are a very weak reason, reality is much more potent litmus test and we are doing just
...[text shortened]... m
and they work, ones confidence grows, after all, wisdom is proven righteous by its
works.

"ok, then go your own way, i have no issues with it, infact i think its rather refreshing
that we revise our teaching constantly, its demonstrates a willingness to learn from
ones mistakes, which takes humility."

i agree that refreshing teaching and a willingness to learn from mistakes is a good thing, in fact its a brilliant thing generally. but when it comes to issues such as telling people how to live life and basing those reasons on nothing more than a gamble on getting the correct understanding of an ancient text, its wrong, its wrong to be so black and white.

why not offer up new understandings as a choice to followers, rather than 'this is what the elders believe so we all believe it now'

" Hypothetical and emotive imaginary scenario's
are a very weak reason"

i disagree, the hypothetical situation is very pertinent. im sure many of those people who prepared for the end of the world in the 20's and 40's was it? were emotionally destroyed when it didnt happen. many probably said good bye to family or gave up their jobs and worldly possessions. you cant play with people lives like this unless you know something is fact.

the 'oh well its all part of the learning curve' seems callous when peoples lives are involved.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
This may be the case but principles are so far reaching that they can be applied in all
manner of situations, seemingly unrelated at first.

maybe so. but a generation coming through the global turmoils at the turn of the century may well find that their 'understandings' heavily reflect what they have come through. if the understandings start to reflect the zeitgeist of the day too much then you have a problem. are the 'understandings' fitting the bible or is the bible fitting the 'understandings'?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
for me personally i would find it hard to commit myself to a 'understanding' if previous 'understandings' had been errors. i would have a nagging voice in my head saying 'what if this is wrong, what if its just a mistake like the others'. especially when it comes to serious issues such as abortion, violence and blood transfusions.

how would a parent nge in your process that eradicates errors then how can a follower be any more confident?

Faith in God and that as time goes on he teaches us and lets us learn. If one is not willing to have that faith the Bible so much teaches and mistakes made by man deter one's faith, one ends up out on their own and beleieve a they see fit.
That has never been the way God has worked especially in the end of this system. He clearly said he would have a "people for his name" not individuals.
Also this is why the examples are in the Bible that shows how some would fall by the wayside and die off and not grow spiritually and reproduce that message and to help others grow with true teachings.
Many have fallen away from being a JW and that is because they did not put their full faith in Jehovah and let the ones he does work thru on the earth continue even when we make mistakes.
We cannot put our faith in any man but in Jehovah only and be patient in his works.
There have actually been some that have seen a truth in the Bible that has not been explained from the WTS yet or taught to us. Why not? How should one react? Be pushy and insist that it be exposed? Some have left us because of that.
But not waiting on Jehovah and his timetable is a mistake. One has to have FAITH that if it is a truth, Jehovah will feed us that in his time.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
[b]"ok, then go your own way, i have no issues with it, infact i think its rather refreshing
that we revise our teaching constantly, its demonstrates a willingness to learn from
ones mistakes, which takes humility."

i agree that refreshing teaching and a willingness to learn from mistakes is a good thing, in fact its a brilliant thing general ...[text shortened]... ll its all part of the learning curve' seems callous when peoples lives are involved.[/b]

nothing more than a gamble, among Jehovahs witnesses we have solved all major
problems, economic differences, racial differences educational backgrounds, cultural
backgrounds, is my marriage not better for the application of Biblical principles solid as
a rock, my wife beautiful and fulfilled, my children happy and content? always they are
being praised at school because of their manners and consideration of others,
especially older persons, is my work not more productive because of lack of excess
and honesty? and here you are telling me that i have went about things the wrong way,
brilliant, absolutely brilliant,

YouTube

Originally posted by galveston75
Faith in God and that as time goes on he teaches us and lets us learn. If one is not willing to have that faith the Bible so much teaches and mistakes made by man deter one's faith, one ends up out on their own and beleieve a they see fit.
That has never been the way God has worked especially in the end of this system. He clearly said he would have a " ...[text shortened]... stakes.
We cannot put our faith in any man but in Jehovah only and be patient in his works.

"Faith in God and that as time goes on he teaches us and lets us learn. If one is not willing to have that faith the Bible so much teaches and mistakes made by man deter one's faith, one ends up out on their own and beleieve a they see fit."

i think youve kinda got it the wrong way around. im not questioning a faith in the bible. a person can think the bible is 100% correct by trusting that it is gods words.
but having doubts over a scholars 'understanding' of the bible is different. you doubting a catholic 'understanding' does not mean you dont have faith in the bible does it.

im not questioning your faith in god or the bible. im questioning how sensible it is to commit 100% to new 'understandings' when they could be wrong. by doing this you are not questioning god, you are questioning the guy who had the 'understanding'.

if huge errors have been made in the past, and nothing has changed in your processes, then its fair to question the validity of new 'understandings'.


do you guys work on the principle that your understandings are always becoming more accurate?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
nothing more than a gamble, among Jehovahs witnesses we have solved all major
problems, economic differences, racial differences educational backgrounds, cultural
backgrounds, is my marriage not better for the application of Biblical principles solid as
a rock, my wife beautiful and fulfilled, my children happy and content? always they are
be ...[text shortened]... he wrong way,
brilliant, absolutely brilliant,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmXAnB0mEvo

robbie, this is just silly. im glad you've got great kids and lovely wife. but lots of people do. regardless of religion or non religion. im not questioning the base principles of christianity.

im not sure how me questioning areas of your faith can be extrapolated to me saying your entire life is being lead the wrong way. its seems a rather extreme and illogical response.


good link. one of my most favorite songs.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
[b]"Faith in God and that as time goes on he teaches us and lets us learn. If one is not willing to have that faith the Bible so much teaches and mistakes made by man deter one's faith, one ends up out on their own and beleieve a they see fit."

i think youve kinda got it the wrong way around. im not questioning a faith in the bible. a person can s work on the principle that your understandings are always becoming more accurate?[/b]

Every JW is encourged to follow the Bible's advice on testing ones faith by the scriptures continously. We do not simply set back and do as any human tells us. This is why being educated by deep sincere study and prayer to God is very important.
And yes the "few" mistakes, did happen. But for some reason many look at those few and ignor the many we do have right and the much improved and healthy lifes the JW's generally do have over many that do not put God first in their life's.
The process that Jehovah is using is pefect and nothing we can do will improve that. We will always make mistakes as humans though just as you do daily and every other human on this planet does.
The shepard of a flock will make mistakes in protecting his flock. He may giude them to a wrong turn or lead them to a place that wasn't the best decision at the time.
But with God's help and listening to him and being patient with this process, it will work.

Do you not make mistakes? If you do within your family, do they turn their back on you and leave? Of course not.

Originally posted by galveston75
Every JW is encourged to follow the Bible's advice on testing ones faith by the scriptures continously. We do not simply set back and do as any human tells us. This is why being educated by deep sincere study and prayer to God is very important.
And yes the "few" mistakes, did happen. But for some reason many look at those few and ignor the many we do s? If you do within your family, do they turn their back on you and leave? Of course not.

we all agree, people make mistakes. thats without question.

your analogy - "Do you not make mistakes? If you do within your family, do they turn their back on you and leave? Of course not."

is nice, but is no more relevant than say - "how many times can a surgeon make mistakes before you refuse to be treated by them".


im not saying people cannot make mistakes. i find it hard to understand how you can follow something 100% when you are not 100% sure its true.

id also say that when i make mistakes its usually something relatively small, that has very little impact on peoples lives. if a j.w. scholar makes a mistake it has a huge impact on the lives of the followers.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
we all agree, people make mistakes. thats without question.

your analogy - "Do you not make mistakes? If you do within your family, do they turn their back on you and leave? Of course not."

is nice, but is no more relevant than say - "how many times can a surgeon make mistakes before you refuse to be treated by them".


im not saying people ca ...[text shortened]... lives. if a j.w. scholar makes a mistake it has a huge impact on the lives of the followers.

I follow the Bible 100% and it has clearly shown that God does work with people and thru people to direct his congregations. I never once said I trust any humans 100%.

"Do not put your trust in earthling man but on the utterances from God", right?

So this is where one has to constantly test what is being taught from the stgae to all. If one has a question and in doubt you would ask an elder to explain. There is a process one can do to learn.
If one is not satisfied then prayer to God is needed. If not then ones faith in God needs to be used. If the faith is not there that person can move on to somethinmg else if they see the need for that.

Originally posted by galveston75
I follow the Bible 100% and it has clearly shown that God does work with people and thru people to direct his congregations. I never once said I trust any humans 100%.

"Do not put your trust in earthling man but on the utterances from God", right?

So this is where one has to constantly test what is being taught from the stgae to all. If one has a ...[text shortened]... e faith is not there that person can move on to somethinmg else if they see the need for that.

an elder explaining why something was implemented does not effect if its true or not. obviously they think its the correct and have a reason why. but that reason could be an error. asking the people who have made the initial error will only lead to you making the same mistake.



praying to god doesnt help the situation, god is not going to tell you if there has been an error in the 'understanding'.

again, im not questioning your faith in god. its your faith in the j.w. schollars that i dont understand.

can you remember anybody ever querying an 'understanding' and not being satisfied by the explanation given by an elder?


id also add that you cannot be sure you are following the bible 100%. if you follow new 'understandings' of the bibles meaning made by men, and you think men are capable of mistakes then it stands to reason some of the 'understandings' could be wrong. then it follows that there is a chance that you are not following the bible correctly.

for example, if you had lived when j.w's though the world was ending in the 1920's. you wouldnt be following the bible 100%. you would be partly following the bible and partly following the human error of a scholar. you could be doing something similar right, now.

maybe not, but you cannot rule it out.