Originally posted by @dj2becker
This reality you speak of can it be objectively verified or is it only subjective?

More importantly, can you ever tender a sentence that doesn't include the words objectivity and subjectivity?

Originally posted by @kellyjay
...
This is what I said, if morality was up to us, which one of us? If you claim all of us than every view and opinion are equal, if you say just those that X, whatever X is, how do you put X above everyone else? ...

I think it's a mistake to assume that if morality is up to us then all opinions are equal. What you did there is to take the idea that morality is not proscribed to us via some overarching objective view, and forced that idea to exist only within that objective view!

You say that if morality is subjective, then all of those subjective views must be equal. 'Equal' according to what view now? Clearly you are asking for the individual views to submit to some sort of objective standard.

The bible advocates slavery. According to the objective standard you advocate.

Originally posted by @kellyjay...
This is what I said, if morality was up to us, which one of us? If you claim all of us than
every view and opinion are equal, if you say just those that X, whatever X is, how do you
put X above everyone else? You are claiming a our views are what matters, yet our
views do not agree with each other, so there is a problem....

We all decide right from wrong. We do this as individuals, and we don't do it from a vacuum. Nature and nurture. So many interesting aspects to consider!

But I don't think that being told right from wrong is good enough anymore. Since santa died, really.

Originally posted by @dj2becker
This reality you speak of can it be objectively verified or is it only subjective?

Humans are not objective. Even if there is an objective moral code, our ability to interpret is subject to our limitations [experiences, bias, etc.] and necessarily subjective.

Originally posted by @apathist
We all decide right from wrong. We do this as individuals, and we don't do it from a vacuum. Nature and nurture. So many interesting aspects to consider!

But I don't think that being [b]told right from wrong is good enough anymore. Since santa died, really.[/b]

So there really isn’t such thing according to you.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
So there really isn’t such thing according to you.

What? How did you get that?

There is right and wrong. Which? depends on whether you are feeding or being eaten. This is what your god built.

Originally posted by @apathist
I think it's a mistake to assume that if morality is up to us then all opinions are equal. What you did there is to take the idea that morality is not proscribed to us via some overarching objective view, and forced that idea to exist only within that objective view!

You say that if morality is subjective, then all of those subjective views must be equ ...[text shortened]... tive standard.

The bible advocates slavery. According to the objective standard you advocate.

A standard, okay who and then why should anyone listen to someone else’s standards they may disagree with it for any reason? What makes one human point of view better than any other?

Originally posted by @kellyjay
A standard, okay who and then why should anyone listen to someone else’s standards they may disagree with it for any reason? What makes one human point of view better than any other?

Bingo. Don't think you must be told right from wrong. Instead, decide for yourself.

It's funny because that is what everyone already does. Everyone.

Originally posted by @apathist
Bingo. Don't think you must be told right from wrong. Instead, decide for yourself.

It's funny because that is what everyone already does. Everyone.

I do think that, but it should only be done with someone with the proper authority. You have any one in mind whose authority covers the whole human race?

Originally posted by @kellyjay
I do think that, but it should only be done with someone with the proper authority. You have any one in mind whose authority covers the whole human race?

"should only be done with someone with the proper authority" you say.

You have the proper authority to say so, right? AND 'proper authority' must meet your requirements, right?

Originally posted by @kellyjay
A standard, okay who and then why should anyone listen to someone else’s standards they may disagree with it for any reason? What makes one human point of hview better than any other?

Listen to all points of view.


The more generally inclusive, human(e) ,wholistic ideas are always more relevant than the divided and narrow views that theists have . They aren't 'better' but definitely more practical

Originally posted by @kellyjay
I do think that, but it should only be done with someone with the proper authority.

Why should it?
Seems to be working fine at the moment.

In fact I would argue that the more secular a society is the better the rules governing that society have become.

I would not want to go back to laws which torture and kill as punishment.
Burn witches.
And outlaw certain sexual practices.

Originally posted by @apathist
"should only be done with someone with the proper authority" [b]you say.

You have the proper authority to say so, right? AND 'proper authority' must meet your requirements, right?[/b]

It is a matter of authority, you want to claim a standard, than by what, or whose authority should be used? Someone who makes claims of authority will be listened to why? If there isn’t a central authority than, to repeat the obvious there isn’t one.

I believe we are aware of a standard, because we spend a great deal of time making excuses for our bad behavior. I believe we know we are in a world with love as a standard, so when we treat others with anything short of love is always done with excuses and some justification due to our guilty conscience.

I believe we are all under a standard of love now, therefore we need salvation because of our ugly sinful lives. A standard will never come from one of us or any group of us. God has created a world with one built into it.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
It is a matter of authority, you want to claim a standard, than by what, or whose authority should be used?

In the modern world we give authority.
We give it to the police.
We give it to the judiciary.
We give it to politicians.
In the main it works.

Originally posted by @wolfgang59
In the modern world we give authority.
We give it to the police.
We give it to the judiciary.
We give it to politicians.
In the main it works.

I strongly disagree.

In the main it does work .... at keeping people subdued and stupid.
I'll let those type have their authority if they can first prove they deserve it, and we should all know that about half the cops just dont deserve it.

Dont even get me started on pollies.