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Originally posted by @eladar
Can we repay for our sins?
Remember the debt is sin. Tell me, how do we pay for our sin debt?
Can we repay for our sins?
Remember the debt is sin. Tell me, how do we pay for our sin debt?
No, we cannot pay for our sins as to eternity.
But AFTER we are forgiven we can pay the PRICE to be transformed and consecrated to be conformed into the image of Christ as His will is.
This involves forgiving as we were forgiven.
" ... and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors." (see Matt. 6:12)
And if we are forgiven and are unforgiving towards others, the warning of discipline -
"So also will My heavenly Father do to you if each of you does not forgive his brother from your hearts." (Matt. 18:35)
Do WHAT ? Teach us a lesson UNTIL we learn to forgive from our hearts. This means to suffer some loss in "the age to come". Yet the punished believer is still eternally saved.
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05 Jun 18
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Originally posted by @rajk999Your argument was not persuasive years ago and still is not.
Some rewarded
Some suffer loss
Some destroyed
"SAVED YET SO AS THROUGH FIRE" means
SAVED (not totally eternally destroyed) YET SO AS THROUGH FIRE.
No matter how you squirm or shuffle or protest or grumble you CANNOT erase the words from the New Testament -
"But he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."
You cannot get rid of those words.
05 Jun 18
Originally posted by @sonshipThere is no argument. Paul said there are three groups
Your argument was not persuasive years ago and still is not.
[b]"SAVED YET SO AS THROUGH FIRE" means
SAVED (not totally eternally destroyed) YET SO AS THROUGH FIRE.
No matter how you squirm or shuffle or protest or grumble you CANNOT erase the words from the New Testament -
"But he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."
You cannot get rid of those words.[/b]
REWARDED
SUFFER LOSS
DESTROYED
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05 Jun 18
Originally posted by @rajk999In the case of the unforgiving servant of Jesus Christ he was punished UNTIL he learned to forgive from his heart.
There is no argument. Paul said there are three groups
REWARDED
SUFFER LOSS
DESTROYED
What was destroyed in him was his UNFORGIVING heart.
What was built up in him after the discipline was learning to forgive his fellow servants from his heart.
Matthew 18:34 -
" And his master became angry and delivered him to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed." (v.34)
During the church age he marred and defiled the church of Christ by his lack of forgiveness. His persistent and unsanctified Chistian living destroyed something of the fellowship in the brotherhood of the Lord's servants.
His untransformed soulish living destroyed the love fellowship of harmony in the church. In the millennial kingdom his unforgiving and unholy habit is DESTROYED and he is sanctified under discipline and punishment.
"If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, and such are you." (1 Cor. 3:17)
05 Jun 18
Originally posted by @sonshipDESTROYED
In the case of the unforgiving servant of Jesus Christ he was punished UNTIL he learned to forgive from his heart.
What was destroyed in him was his UNFORGIVING heart.
What was built up in him after the discipline was learning to forgive his fellow servants from his heart.
[b] Matthew 18:34 -
" And his master became angry and ...[text shortened]... troy him; for the temple of God is holy, and such are you." (1 Cor. 3:17)[/b]
05 Jun 18
Originally posted by @sonshipAccording to Jesus the only way to have our sins forgiven is by forgiving others. No amount of our suffering will ever cover our sins.Can we repay for our sins?
Remember the debt is sin. Tell me, how do we pay for our sin debt?
No, we cannot pay for our sins as to eternity.
But AFTER we are forgiven we can pay the PRICE to be transformed and consecrated to be conformed into the image of Christ as His will is.
This involves forgiving as we were forgiven.
...[text shortened]... uffer some loss in [b]"the age to come". Yet the punished believer is still eternally saved.[/b]
Why do you profess a salvation based on what happens to you? Why profess a gospel where we pay for our sins not sins covered by Jesus' sacrifice?
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05 Jun 18
Originally posted by @eladar
According to Jesus the only way to have our sins forgiven is by forgiving others. No amount of our suffering will ever cover our sins.
Why do you profess a salvation based on what happens to you? Why profess a gospel where we pay for our sins not sins covered by Jesus' sacrifice?
According to Jesus the only way to have our sins forgiven is by forgiving others. No amount of our suffering will ever cover our sins.
His being disciplined was not to cover his sins. It was to learn to forgive his brother from his heart.
"So also will My heavenly Father do to you if each of you does not forgive his brother from your hearts." (v.35)
It is not "so will my Father do to you unless you cover your sins."
Why do you profess a salvation based on what happens to you?
Salvation is because of our faith in what Jesus did for us.
Reward during the kingdom is by allowing Jesus to change us.
The unforgiving servant had the age of grace to allow Jesus to change him. He did not cooperate.
In the coming age of the millennial he STILL has to be changed by Jesus. But in that age it will have a different flavor.
Today in the church age it is voluntary.
In the coming millennial kingdom age you will have no choice. Your time or procrastinating is over.
Why profess a gospel where we pay for our sins not sins covered by Jesus' sacrifice?
The "repay all that was owed" (v.34) is not pertaining to his eternal redemption which is secured by Christ dying for him.
"For this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for forgiveness of sins." (Matt. 26:28)
In the intervening age of one thousand years PRECEDING the age of eternity there are clearly degrees of greatness and degrees of discipline to those saved saints who enter into that time.
Degrees of reward -
"Therefore whoever annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called the least in the kingdom of the heavens; but whoever practices and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens." (Matt. 5:19)
Both are in the kingdom of the heavens.
Yet one is regarded with greater renown then the other.
Likewise degrees of punishment:
"And the slave who knew his master's will and did not prepare or do according to his will, will receive many lashes.
But he who did not know, yet did things worthy of stripes, will receive few lashes. " (Luke 12:47,48a)
Both are the Lord's servants.
Yet each is punished in relation to how much he should have known better.
Both passages, Matt. 5:19 and Luke 12:47,48 are about Christ's dealing with His servants AFTER His second coming.
The "age to come" after the second coming of Christ is the one thousand year kingdom.
05 Jun 18
Originally posted by @sonshipSo what happens if you never forgive?According to Jesus the only way to have our sins forgiven is by forgiving others. No amount of our suffering will ever cover our sins.
His being disciplined was not to cover his sins. It was to learn to forgive his brother from his heart.
[quote] [b] "So also will My heavenly Father do to you if each of you does not forgive his bro ...[text shortened]...
The [b]"age to come" after the second coming of Christ is the one thousand year kingdom.[/b]
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05 Jun 18
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Originally posted by @eladarAfter the thousand years there is the age of the new heaven and the new earth - an eternal age. We know that in that age ALL of the past things are OVER and there is only righteousness. This has to mean that all of God's children by that time would have undergone complete transformation.
So what happens if you never forgive?
"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and the sea was no more. (Rev. 21:1)
And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (v.2)
...
And He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death will be no more, nor will there be sorrow or crying or pain anymore, for the former things have passed away. (v.4)
The passing away of all of "the former things" includes
also any need for more sanctification of His sons. They are all now not only righteous in position, but righteous thoroughly in disposition in entire constitution. The Bride of the Lamb is fully ready for marriage to Christ.
Not just a remnant of overcomers is ready but the entire Body of the late comers to sanctification are now also perfected.
Only righteousness dwells in that age.
"But according to His promise we are expecting new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells." (2 Pet. 3:13)
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05 Jun 18
All the saints in whom God began His saving work are now completed. No more remedial discipline is needed.
"Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun in you a good work will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus ..." (Phil. 1:6)
Though some must undergo discipline God is ABLE to present us eventually without blemish in exultation. Some just have to go through a little "summer school".
" But to Him who is able to guard you from stumbling and to set you before His glory without blemish in exultation, to the only wise God our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord be glory, majesty, might, and authority before all time and now and unto all eternity. Amen." (Jude 24,25)
The ENTIRE Wife has without blemish or "any such thing".
"That He might present the church to Himself glorious, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she would be holy and without blemish." (Eph. 5:27)
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05 Jun 18
All the sons of God, according to His predestination, are completely holy within and without in thoroughness. The process of sanctification is assured to be completed.
"Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love,
Predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace which He graced us in the Beloved." (Eph. 1:4-6)
Remember that with God a thousand years is like one day.
So some children of His just needed to attend something like "summer school" just for one day (in His eyes).
"But do not let this one thing escape you, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day.
The Lord does not delay regarding the promise, as some count delay but is long suffering toward you, not intending that any perish but that all advance to repentance." ( 2 Peter 3:8,9)
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The Apostle Paul says that we must ALL ARRIVE. He does not say ALL ARRIVE necessarily at the same time.
"Until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. ..." (Eph. 4:13)
And Christ's mighty prayer is that ALL the sons of God would be perfected eventually into one.
"That they all may be one, even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, that the world may believe that You have sent Me,
And the glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, even as We are one;
I in them, and You in Me, that they may be PERFECTED into one, that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me." (John 17:21-23)
05 Jun 18
Originally posted by @eladarHypocrite!!
Jesus says this is how it is with us and God.
God forgives us our sins which obviously means we are saved. But then because we fail to be forgiving to those of us on earth we can have our sins remembered. If we have to pay for our sins we are no longer saved.